Why todays era is better than past eras. Discussion.

[billeau2]

This was what I was trying to say earlier. Look at US Men's Soccer. The US has more than one-and-a-half times the population of Germany, Britain, and France combined; yet each of those countries are significantly better than the US at that sport.

Its not as if the US is a 3rd world nation that can't support athletes, and there are plenty of opportunities and lots of money being put into development. But the point is most of the top athletes in the US are pursuing other sports.

If most of your top athletes are doing something else, this can counter a large population.

its very hard to say "why." Why there are better soccer/footballers in Europe. Ill tell you a story. As a kid I would go to central park and see none other than the great Pele, the brazilian soccer great. he was coaching the New York Cosmos team. Even then there was an infrastucture, a promise that the United States would be showing those Euro bums that the good ole Muricans can kick a ball as well as the rest!

How many years has it been? I mean... the ladies team has made the leap. That is an interesting aside that could tell us something? Not sure what though... Cut to the games where the brazilians beat the americans 1 to 0 I forget the year... So Dee Money, all those years later, all the promises of a great team emerging... despite the score, the Brazilians toyed with the US team, i remember watching that game...

My point is, there are intangibles. I don't know why other countries cannot match the countries that have talented professional prize fighters a plenty, but it is not because of lack of resources. There is something magic to our environment. The United States is a violent, often God Forsaken country... a place where kids have to fight to get to school, fight to get home to school, get in fights cutting school... And with new immigrants fighting the ladder to enter the fondue of the melting pot... It creates those magical conditions of toughness that prevail in the ring. I believe that.

[Bundana]

To me? If I can go to a major city and find a state of the art facility, the tradition exists... I think there is an avid boxing community in China. So I think it is there.

They may have the facilities, but they need someone who can really grab people's attention.

Remember Mary Lou Retton - the 16-year-old girl who captured the hearts of every American back in '84? Until then, US gymnasts had never been a major player on the international scene - but look at where they are now!

Chinese boxing needs someone like that.

[DeeMoney]

its very hard to say "why." Why there are better soccer/footballers in Europe. Ill tell you a story. As a kid I would go to central park and see none other than the great Pele, the brazilian soccer great. he was coaching the New York Cosmos team. Even then there was an infrastucture, a promise that the United States would be showing those Euro bums that the good ole Muricans can kick a ball as well as the rest!

How many years has it been? I mean... the ladies team has made the leap. That is an interesting aside that could tell us something? Not sure what though... Cut to the games where the brazilians beat the americans 1 to 0 I forget the year... So Dee Money, all those years later, all the promises of a great team emerging... despite the score, the Brazilians toyed with the US team, i remember watching that game...

My point is, there are intangibles. I don't know why other countries cannot match the countries that have talented professional prize fighters a plenty, but it is not because of lack of resources. There is something magic to our environment. The United States is a violent, often God Forsaken country... a place where kids have to fight to get to school, fight to get home to school, get in fights cutting school... And with new immigrants fighting the ladder to enter the fondue of the melting pot... It creates those magical conditions of toughness that prevail in the ring. I believe that.

I have worked at a number of inner city schools, in places that fit your description. Most of the kids who are athletes there and looking to 'make their way out via sports' are looking at primarily football and basketball. For certain there are those who are looking at boxing and other combat sports, just not as many.

I think the allure of the college scholarship plays a role in that. College is being touted as the key to raise ones self out of that lower socio-economic status, and athletics is that lifeline to get into college for many. Thats something that isnt being offered via boxing.

As for US women's soccer, well women's sports in the US don't have that long standing tradition, so soccer was able to gain foothold initially among the female population. Moreover, due to title IX, the US puts a lot of money towards women's sports; combine that with our population advantage and its easy to see why we are dominant globally in women's sports.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Actually the US punches above it's weight in boxing compared to soccer that may be the most popular kid sport in America along with basketball.

American boxing been greatly reduced by the Ali syndrome and by globalization of boxing, yet still produces champs, a few being HOFer types.

Don't follow soccer but picked it up with my two boys who excelled at it, yet it became an albatross of over organization their world in comparison to the free range flowing of modern computer technology.

No way I get them involved in such a shady, lowbrow sport of boxing with all it's brain damage. Oddly soccer ended up with the same reputation of brain damage as may happen in any repetitive sport of head usage.

[billeau2]

They may have the facilities, but they need someone who can really grab people's attention.

Remember Mary Lou Retton - the 16-year-old girl who captured the hearts of every American back in '84? Until then, US gymnasts had never been a major player on the international scene - but look at where they are now!

Chinese boxing needs someone like that.

There is a major base for fight sports in China. This includes San Da (Chinese mma), boxing, etc. The interest is there... It is in cities, but Chinese cities are huge, so thats a lot of people.

I can't say with certainty that the enthusiasm is greater, or lesser... Also, women's sports seem an exception to the rule: look at women's soccar in the USA.

I think there is something to what you call "enthusiasm" but it eludes me...

[billeau2]

- -Actually the US punches above it's weight in boxing compared to soccer that may be the most popular kid sport in America along with basketball.

American boxing been greatly reduced by the Ali syndrome and by globalization of boxing, yet still produces champs, a few being HOFer types.

Don't follow soccer but picked it up with my two boys who excelled at it, yet it became an albatross of over organization their world in comparison to the free range flowing of modern computer technology.

No way I get them involved in such a shady, lowbrow sport of boxing with all it's brain damage. Oddly soccer ended up with the same reputation of brain damage as may happen in any repetitive sport of head usage.

I was suprised to hear that as well.

[billeau2]

I have worked at a number of inner city schools, in places that fit your description. Most of the kids who are athletes there and looking to 'make their way out via sports' are looking at primarily football and basketball. For certain there are those who are looking at boxing and other combat sports, just not as many.

I think the allure of the college scholarship plays a role in that. College is being touted as the key to raise ones self out of that lower socio-economic status, and athletics is that lifeline to get into college for many. Thats something that isnt being offered via boxing.

As for US women's soccer, well women's sports in the US don't have that long standing tradition, so soccer was able to gain foothold initially among the female population. Moreover, due to title IX, the US puts a lot of money towards women's sports; combine that with our population advantage and its easy to see why we are dominant globally in women's sports.

Great points. I cosign on those observations having taught High School in the Bayview/Hunter's Point hood in San Francisco. Football is the huge one in that area... In Baltimore it was basketball, and there was a high school infrastructure that produced great teams, great players (Dunbar comes to mind).

[Dr. Z]

Thanks Bat... If only I had powers like that!

Anyway, here are some more numbers, that might be of interest in a discussion like this...

...I took The Ring's end-of-year rankings for 1925, to see how many fights the 10 top contenders (I did not include reigning champions) in each division (80 men in total, as there of course were only 8 divisions back then) had during that year. I found, that they had anywhere from 2 (Harry Wills) to 33 (Young Stribling) - with an average of 13.09! I made the same calcuations for 1930, and then for every 10 years after that (each time only for the 8 classic divisions) and came up with this:

1925 - 13.09
1930 - 10.74
1940 - 9.94
1950 - 8.60
1960 - 5.86
1970 - 5.33
1980 - 4.15
1990 - 3.29
2000 - 2.96
2010 - 2.26
2014 - 2.18

As said, these numbers are only for the 80 top men in the 8 original divisions! There's no way of telling, if they can be said to represent the ENTIRE pool of boxers at any given time. However, they certainly seem to indicate, what I'm sure we all know/believe... that the old-timers fought MUCH more often than today. Of this there can be little doubt!

While I agree with everything you wrote, boxing wasn't a global sport back then. It is now.

If I were king, here's how I'd change boxing.

1 ) A contraction of weight divisions. Mirror the amateur weight classes.

2 ) Bring 15 round title fights back. But only for special occasions like a title unification fight.

3 ) A champion is stripped of his belt if he doesn't fight twice in 18 months, one being a top ten opponents defined the average of Ring Magazine and Box Rec.An injury, okay give another 6 months.

4 ) For title fights, give me five judges. One for each side of the ring and one video judge. 3 is too easy to get a bad decision. 5 is not. And draw the judges 72 hours before the match to help prevent funny business.

5 ) Every 6 years have a super series

[Bundana]

While I agree with everything you wrote, boxing wasn't a global sport back then. It is now.

If I were king, here's how I'd change boxing.

1 ) A contraction of weight divisions. Mirror the amateur weight classes.

2 ) Bring 15 round title fights back. But only for special occasions like a title unification fight.

3 ) A champion is stripped of his belt if he doesn't fight twice in 18 months, one being a top ten opponents defined the average of Ring Magazine and Box Rec.An injury, okay give another 6 months.

4 ) For title fights, give me five judges. One for each side of the ring and one video judge. 3 is too easy to get a bad decision. 5 is not. And draw the judges 72 hours before the match to help prevent funny business.

5 ) Every 6 years have a super series

Yes, boxing was very different back in the 1920s. Everything of importance took place in the US... where Americans were fighting other Americans, with little input from the outside world.

I agree, there are too many weight classes - especially at the lower end. But I'm not sure, I'd like the pros to mirror the amateurs, as far as weight is concerned. For historical reasons, I prefer (for example) welterweight to be 147 - not the 69 kilos (152) they have in the amateurs.

15 rounds for world title fights - yes, I'm all for that (what real fight fan wouldn't be?).

I'm sick of these return clauses, where two boxers can monopolize a championship - keeping deserving challengers on the sideline for years.

If Fury and Jushua get down to business in the new year, it will likely be a 2-fight deal - with no one else getting a shot until well into 2022. Shouldn't be allowed, imo.

5 judges instead of 3? Maybe not a bad idea!

[ShoulderRoll]

Yes, boxing was very different back in the 1920s. Everything of importance took place in the US... where Americans were fighting other Americans, with little input from the outside world.

That's simply not true, though.

Georges Carpentier, Battling Siki, Mike McTigue, Luis Firpo, Pancho Villa, Panama Al Brown, Kid Chocolate...none were American.

The best in the world came to fight in the US back then. Just like they do today.