Robinson against ATG Middleweights

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Good. In a hundred matches with each mythical opponent, no one would be 100 for 100. Many of the series would be pretty close. I see Robby beating current version of Golovkin maybe 95 out of 100 times. Imagine these fights as running on a computer whose day job is as God, so it knows everything and is accurate. The fighters recover after the fight with no adverse effects. What this does is allow the fighters to display their whole range of faults and talents. Though they are not permanently injured, God lets them learn from each experience. Each fight takes place in about a millionth of a second, which is enough time for God to give them some time for poontang as well.

You don't have to feel responsigble shug, let God be the culprit here. In other words, how do you see God seeing these 100 matches?

I don't feel like making a determination on one match either, since it is not as informative. Let's make it a series.

Ray out of a hundred times vs each guy

Would beat ggg 97-3
Beat ketchel 90-10
Beat hopkins 84-16
Beat langford 77-23
Lose to greb 45-55
Lose to monzon 45-55
Lose to hagler 45-55
Beat toney 90-10
Beat walker 87-13
Lose to roy 37-63

Just my guesstimating

[The Old LefHook]

Against:

Langford: 80-20. Sam, you don't know how to keep your chin down, and why aren't you crouching?

Ketchel: 85-15. Stanley, you thought Langford knew how to box. You are going to be so easy there will be a few times Robby does not train well enough.

Walker: 75-25. Mickey, you will knock Ray down a few times over the series. You will win by KO five or more times. I like the way you hit, Mickey.

Greb: 70-30. Harry, you were one of the greatest swarmers, but against Ray the price to get inside may be too high, and almost as bad once you do get there. You need a harder punch and, of course your other eye.

Monzon: 49-51. Carlos, you are a huge middleweight, Ray is a small one. Ray is the man to take the greatest ring general out of his game. The pi*sed Injun in you will come out when this faster guy starts bashing you, but you will adapt over the series.

Hagler: 54-46. Marvin, Robinson will not make as much effort to get out of your way as Leonard did. He comes to fight. Robby punches harder, but your chin is even better than his is. Your faults in ring generalship will hurt you, if you get the idea you can box with Robinson. Fortunately for you, Robinson is not a back peddler, he simply hunts in circles. You are as hard to fight and hit harder than Jake and have a little too much stamina for even 1951 Robinson.

Toney: 75-25. James you are good for a man who stands in one place. Fortunately for you, Robinson will not try to be as evasive as Jones.

Jones: 75-25. Roy. You have found a man who can hit you, and he does not stop with one. Your chin will let you down.

Hopkins: 85-15. Bernard, your focus will win a few.

Golovkin: 95-5. Genaddddddy, who's your daddy?

Burley: 65-35. Charley, you will want to box. Okay, so did Gavilan and Servo.

[The Old LefHook]

I see yellow eyes trained on me in the dark.

I gave the minute advantage to only Hagler and Monzon. They are both full fledged middleweights. The size difference between Ray and his opponents was usually very noticeable.

In my view Hagler barely edges Robby, but Monzon edges Hagler. That does make Monzon or Hagler the best middleweights. That distinction still belongs to Robinson because of overall legacy. He handles most of the guys on the list more easily than they do. They might both lose to the slick Burley. I believe Burley was better than Rodrigo Valdez. Lamotta may also beat them both. Jake is only missing from the list because this list pertains to Robinson, and we already know how Jake does against him. Mickey Walker still is not backing up from Hagler. The toy bulldog can take everything Marvin has and return awesome firepower. Let's see how Monzon likes a man that gets inside his defense all the time. Same with Greb--he may handle either or both of them, but is handled easily by Robinson.

[Humean]

From those on the poll I'd take Monzon, Hagler, Jones, Hopkins and Golovkin against 50-52 Robinson.

Monzon's enduring control of the distance throughout the 15 rounds and superior reach allows him to simply outwork Robinson in a fairly uninteresting fight. 145-140 Monzon

Hagler would give Robinson more opportunities to lay the big punches on him than Monzon but Hagler would also be able to hurt Robinson more than Monzon and lay down more damage. Hagler hits harder than probably any man than Robinson ever faced and brings volume with it. Maybe a late Hagler stoppage win or decision with a score around 145-140 in an entertaining fight.

Robinson's athleticism has more than met its match against Jones who just does everything Robinson does but faster. Robinson struggles to lay much solid on Jones's whiskers and Jones either stops Robinson in the mid to late rounds or wins a wide decision.

Robinson wins rounds when he is boxing and moving but Hopkins mauls him in close and takes a close-ish decision in a decent fight. 144-141 Hopkins

Robinson wins some early rounds by moving and jabbing, landing some good power punches too but by the mid rounds Golovkin is starting to lay a beating on him, Golovkin is just far too strong and powerful and Robinson cannot get away from him nor deal with him on the inside. Golovkin gets a mid to late stoppage.

[The Old LefHook]

Golovkin is just too strong and powerful for Robinson, eh?

Maybe some of Golovkins opponents would have beaten Robinson, as well. Okay, you can give me the full list now.

What are you, in some kind of Golovkin trance, kid, or just dim witted? You have to wait on these things. I have seen dozens of invincible punchers come and go and fall by the wayside into the ditch of history. They have to prove themselves a lot more than Golovkin has. I am a big fan of his, too, and hope for all time greatness from him, because I love to see it when it happens. But it hasn't happened yet.

[Suckmedry]

From those on the poll I'd take Monzon, Hagler, Jones, Hopkins and Golovkin against 50-52 Robinson.

Monzon's enduring control of the distance throughout the 15 rounds and superior reach allows him to simply outwork Robinson in a fairly uninteresting fight. 145-140 Monzon

Hagler would give Robinson more opportunities to lay the big punches on him than Monzon but Hagler would also be able to hurt Robinson more than Monzon and lay down more damage. Hagler hits harder than probably any man than Robinson ever faced and brings volume with it. Maybe a late Hagler stoppage win or decision with a score around 145-140 in an entertaining fight.

Robinson's athleticism has more than met its match against Jones who just does everything Robinson does but faster. Robinson struggles to lay much solid on Jones's whiskers and Jones either stops Robinson in the mid to late rounds or wins a wide decision.

Robinson wins rounds when he is boxing and moving but Hopkins mawls him in close and takes a close-ish decision in a decent fight. 144-141 Hopkins

Robinson wins some early rounds by moving and jabbing, landing some good power punches too but by the mid rounds Golovkin is starting to lay a beating on him, Golovkin is just far too strong and powerful and Robinson cannot get away from him nor deal with him on the inside. Golovkin gets a mid to late stoppage.

You are underrating Robinson severely, and not accounting for his one punch KO power and his chin. The guy lost by TKO once in like 200 fights yet you have 3 out of these 5 guys stopping him.

Golovkin is always there to be hit, for example, especially for a guy with Robinsons speed. How is it reasonable to imagine him walking Ray down and stopping him? No one does that vs Robinsons power. He knocked guys out moving backwards ffs, do you know how difficult and remarkable that is?

And for the record I'm a big believer in Golovkin. I would expect him to give ANY mw a hard fight.

[Humean]

Golovkin is just too strong and powerful for Robinson, eh?

Maybe some of Golovkins opponents would have beaten Robinson, as well. Okay, you can give me the full list now.

What are you, in some kind of Golovkin trance, kid, or just dim witted? You have to wait on these things. I have seen dozens of invincible punchers come and go and fall by the wayside into the ditch of history. They have to prove themselves a lot more than Golovkin has. I am a big fan of his, too, and hope for all time greatness from him, because I love to see it when it happens. But it hasn't happened yet.

Oh great another "we just don't know until he defeats X". Who would he have to defeat to convince you? Unfortunately he cannot actually fight and defeat Sugar Ray Robinson.

Golovkin is certainly stronger and more powerful than Robinson and probably any fighter he ever faced. You shouldn't have put Golovkin in the list if you didn't want anyone to say he'd defeat Robinson.

You are underrating Robinson severely, and not accounting for his one punch KO power and his chin. The guy lost by TKO once in like 200 fights yet you have 3 out of these 5 guys stopping him.

Golovkin is always there to be hit, for example, especially for a guy with Robinsons speed. How is it reasonable to imagine him walking Ray down and stopping him? No one does that vs Robinsons power. He knocked guys out moving backwards ffs, do you know how difficult and remarkable that is?

And for the record I'm a big believer in Golovkin. I would expect him to give ANY mw a hard fight.

Yeah Robinson did have a hell of a chin but he also never faced opponents that had the strength, power and skills as the three opponents I have stopping him. Anyone can be stopped. Robinson could stop Golovkin but i'd fancy Golovkin more times than not to stop him instead. You say Golovkin's defence is leaky but so was Robinsons. A number of middleweights were able to get to Robinson and even bully him. Randy Turpin bullied him in 1951 and the best middleweight Robinson is roughly the 49-52 Robinson. Golovkin's power is a hell of a lot more potent than any of these middleweight opponents that Robinson faced.

Did Robinson defeat a middleweight as good as Golovkin? He defeated some real good ones but none as good as him. LaMotta, Olson, Turpin, Basora, Villemain, Belloise, Basilio, Fullmer, Giardello, Pender etc, a who's who of the best middleweights from the late 40s to early 60s but I don't think any were as good as Monzon, Hagler, Golovkin, Hopkins or Jones Jr.

[Suckmedry]

Oh great another "we just don't know until he defeats X". Who would he have to defeat to convince you? Unfortunately he cannot actually fight and defeat Sugar Ray Robinson.

Golovkin is certainly stronger and more powerful than Robinson and probably any fighter he ever faced. You shouldn't have put Golovkin in the list if you didn't want anyone to say he'd defeat Robinson.



Yeah Robinson did have a hell of a chin but he also never faced opponents that had the strength, power and skills as the three opponents I have stopping him. Anyone can be stopped. Robinson could stop Golovkin but i'd fancy Golovkin more times than not to stop him instead. You say Golovkin's defence is leaky but so was Robinsons. A number of middleweights were able to get to Robinson and even bully him. Randy Turpin bullied him in 1951 and the best middleweight Robinson is roughly the 49-52 Robinson. Golovkin's power is a hell of a lot more potent than any of these middleweight opponents that Robinson faced.

Did Robinson defeat a middleweight as good as Golovkin? He defeated some real good ones but none as good as him. LaMotta, Olson, Turpin, Basora, Villemain, Belloise, Basilio, Fullmer, Giardello, Pender etc, a who's who of the best middleweights from the late 40s to early 60s but I don't think any were as good as Monzon, Hagler, Golovkin, Hopkins or Jones Jr.

All valid points. I think a fight between Robinson and Golovkin would be fantastic.

I just think we haven't seen enough of Golovkin vs high calibre opponents, to determine that he would stop a guy like Robinson yet.

One thing about punchers is they can look unbeatable vs a certain calibre of opponent, but then when the opposition is lifted they can come crashing down very quickly.

We've seen Golovkin absolutely plow through guys like Macklin and Geale. They are both quality boxers, world level for sure. But they aren't A level fighters. In previous eras they would both be contenders on the fringe of the top ten imo. Not top line guys.

So we know he can destroy that calibre of fighter. But what about when he's faced with someone who has an iron jaw, elite level skills, crazy speed and can punch like him? e.g.: Robinson

We just haven't seen enough yet to know if he can hang with those guys. IMO.

[Humean]

All valid points. I think a fight between Robinson and Golovkin would be fantastic.

I just think we haven't seen enough of Golovkin vs high calibre opponents, to determine that he would stop a guy like Robinson yet.

One thing about punchers is they can look unbeatable vs a certain calibre of opponent, but then when the opposition is lifted they can come crashing down very quickly.

We've seen Golovkin absolutely plow through guys like Macklin and Geale. They are both quality boxers, world level for sure. But they aren't A level fighters. In previous eras they would both be contenders on the fringe of the top ten imo. Not top line guys.

So we know he can destroy that calibre of fighter. But what about when he's faced with someone who has an iron jaw, elite level skills, crazy speed and can punch like him? e.g.: Robinson

We just haven't seen enough yet to know if he can hang with those guys. IMO.

There is certainly enough evidence that Golovkin's power is legit, whether his chin, and indeed his skills, hold up against better fighters, especially those with granite chins, is still a legitimate doubt to some extent. However the thing about the very best fighters though is that they rarely, if ever, fight anyone as good as themselves. You can therefore always think that they haven't quite fought a good enough fighter to satisfy all doubts.

Golovkin certainly needs to fight better opponents but I really don't see any reason to doubt he'd defeat these more 'elite' names. You can see the way he is defeating his opponents that he is no 'flash in the pan', he's not Eduardo Lausse (probably the hardest punching middleweight of the 1950s) he's Hagler before his more defining fights.

[The Old LefHook]

Obviously, I should have made the title of this thread Golovkin against the all time greats.