Re-examining Robinson?

[The Old LefHook]

the best thing about Robinson is how well he handled fighters from all the different styles with little difficulty, most guys will struggle with one style, counterpunchers, swarmers, pure boxers, that's bad for them. Robinson handled all of them, no matter what style they fought in. He didn't have a weakness in one area like most other fighters do

That is pretty close. I do think Ray preferred a slugger for an opponent to all other styles. Sluggers like Graziano were vulnerable and allowed him to show his stuff. He handled them all, but I would say he was probably not crazy about pure boxers or swarmers. LaMotta was an awkward swarmer and always gave him trouble, perhaps excepting their last fight. Tiger Jones was a swarmer who beat Ray, albeit a Robinson that was a little rusty and on the comeback trail. He perhaps would always have been a tough fight for Ray. Jones was no scrub. He was crouching and attacking all the time. Robinson was no spent petunia at the time, he would fight on for years, further enhancing his legacy by several notches. By the time he got to Basilio and Fullmer, he was 25% down from his peak years. I am not sure any other middleweight who ever lived who could have fought those guys to the terms he did at 75% of himself. By the time of the last Fullmer fight he was a good 40% down from what he had been.

There is only one fight for which I wish Robinson had been able to temper his aggression, that was the Maxim fight. Robinson fought very foolishly, and I am not about to call it anything else. Why did he keep pounding away at such a rock like a madman? He was never going to KO the beard that could withstand Jersey Joe Walcott. He had a chance of KOing Maxim that approached zero. He was a fool, pure and simple. Outpointing Maxim was an easy matter for a sensible Robinson, but of course, when was Ray ever that sensible? He wanted everyone on the canvas, their foot twitching like Ingo's and piss dribbling from the conrner of their trunks.

He missed a fight with a man who would likely have gone on to all time greatness if not for an untimely death. Marcel Cerdan had the style to give Robinson fits, he was a circling, crouching, boxing demon with all the tools. He may have been good enough to beat up Zale at any point in the iron man's career. He was that good. We were denied not only a great fight but probably a series of titantic contests between Robby and Cerdan.

Pure boxers often made you settle for a decision a la Servo and Gavalin, and I believe Ray had an aversion to decisions. These two gave him close fights, so they got rematches. That was Ray's way. Poor Jose Basora wishes he had never got his rematch. Ray also had an aversion to doubts about himself. He could have outboxed those guys fifty times, but they would always have been close fights and not hugely entertaining. Basora paid an awful price for merely drawing with Robinson previously.

[BattlingNelson]

Some great efforts in this thread.

[BattlingNelson]

Yes at the time of that year's Golden Gloves he was, but Robinson stated his opponent had already turned pro and that's why they'd signed to meet.

I don't believe Butler turned pro and he hadn't at that point in time as he competed in the following year's Golden Gloves - this time listed as based in Florida.



Yes Robinson was avoided after Cochrane had finished war service, both him and Servo took the best non-title fights they could find before being forced to vacate.



At one point I did have an opinion on when Robinson peaked - I seem to vaguely remember once believing it was before he become a fully fledged welterweight.



After the Armstrong affair Robinson joined Louis for their boxing exhibition tour for the US military. There was a gap of 14 months before he returned to face Jannazzo.



Many of the write-up's of that period seem split over just how much he'd lost since "his best days".



Depends on your definition of cheating. If you class carrying an opponent as cheating then yes Robinson cheated.

"I occasionally agreed to carry an opponent, almost always in what is known as a tune-up fight. I never considered it morally wrong as long as I was winning the fight. I was never a killer, like some fighters. I never enjoyed knocking out a guy who I knew had no chance to beat me.

I'm sure guys in the know made some money betting on an opponent going the distance with me, but I didn't bet - I never bet on any of my fights.

My responsibilities wasn't to the betters, it was to the spectators. They're the ones who paid to see me, and I had to be honest with them. If they weren't satisfied, the deal was off.

Any time spectators began to clap, clap, clap - a sarcastic request for action - they got it."

Robinson was a product of the time - even he could not avoid entering into some deals with Palmero - he still needed the keep busy fights and managers like Palmero and others weren't prepared to offer up their guys to a fighter of Robinson ability if they were going to get hurt.

It does throw up many unanswered questions regarding Robinson's record -

Robinson said the October '44 fight against Izzy Jannazzo, his first since service, the agreement was in - reports say Robinson toyed with him in the first, the fans were not too pleased, so he came out throwing in the second and got the stoppage.

It makes you look at his record, the decisions and question were they agreed and which ones finished with stoppages were meant to go the distance.

Good stuff.

I think the bolded is a big deal. Back then the purses depended upon asses in seats and therefore the ability of the boxers to get the spectators to return to see the next fight. Of course entertainment is still important today, but it seems more important to keep that precious zero and fight for a devalued World title.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes at the time of that year's Golden Gloves he was, but Robinson stated his opponent had already turned pro and that's why they'd signed to meet.

I don't believe Butler turned pro and he hadn't at that point in time as he competed in the following year's Golden Gloves - this time listed as based in Florida.

A big surprise

After the Armstrong affair Robinson joined Louis for their boxing exhibition tour for the US military. There was a gap of 14 months before he returned to face Jannazzo.

Was he traveling back and forth doing pro fights, or were those other fights I mentioned as continuing all through the war part of the USO tour, or whatever it was called?

Depends on your definition of cheating. If you class carrying an opponent as cheating then yes Robinson cheated.

Another big surprise in that confession, though I am sure I read it before somewhere. Robinson is being honest about events, but his compromise had been rationalized for years by the time of this past tense interview or book quote, and he was telling a lie within the truth. It bothered him, that is why he had such a long rationalization trying to cover all the bases. But to admit that it bothered him would have seemed to cast negativity on his legacy by himself, and would have cast a shadow we would not like.

Maybe I had better amend my laudation to: Robinson appears to have cheated as little as allowed, because carrying opponents is cheating, pure and simple, whether in boxing or basketball. I forgive him, because I believe my own italics. His rationalizations are super flimsy and transparent, however. He discretely avoids the obvious fact that he received benefits from these "transactions," while announcing that he didn't make any money off them. He was trying hard to minimize it. That is the same thing that happens when one lover finds out the other one has been cheating. Normally, they try to reach their lover first with a watered down version that has all the earmarks of a true confession, but isn't, before the more vicious version they are now sure has leaked, reaches their lover's ears. I know I am going against his own words in pointing out that I think he was lying and it bothered him, not so much in his own mind, but in what we might think and how that might reflect on his legacy but, well, that is psychohistory for you.

[billeau2]

There is so much about Sugar but what stands out to me is how he didn't telegraph...Like Louis even when he went for the kill, the lower body moved first and the arm came right from where it was initially placed. This mechanical skill really makes speed a killer. A lot of guys, like Armstrong for example, or Frazier...mostly swarmers... would use a lot of body movement to hide punches...even Tyson would move in such a way that the punches could not be picked up initially, but to throw with no telegraph of intentions is very difficult, especially when going for the kill.

With Robinson whether he was moving backwards, fowards, circling, he could unload on you in a New York second. I have seen guys with wonderful punching mechanics, but never have I seen such untelegraphed punching...with the exception of when Joe Louis would attack.

[The Old LefHook]

Well, it has just about all been positive so far. Can we find no real negatives in Robinson? No one can be equal in all categories. What was he least best at, might be another way to phrase the question?

Perhaps he was least best at gauging the quality of certain opponents ahead of time, which is not precisely a boxing quality, but definitely relevant. Any sporting man could make the same mistake.

This is a real scavenger hunt, it is hard to find anything for which he might lose a vagrant legacy point here and there, but I still think not impossible.

For starters, a good case can be made that he avoided Jose Basora for five years until Basora was shot. The first fight made good money, so that excuse is not viable. Robinson did not substitute weaklings in his place, his roster of competition remaining stellar. Still, Basora was not on that roster again until he was well faded, reminiscent of Leonard/Hearns II, which was not a timely rematch either. Basora went from a draw in the first fight to being KO'd in fifty seconds and remaining disoriented for a number of minutes.

But I would rather examine the two Turpin fights. Turpin had long arms and was built like a toy super hero. He was strong everywhere. He could dip low on his legs for the entire fight. His jab was a power punch, which he always stepped forcefully into, and which rammed like a fence post into your face. The first fight in England was what you would expect from the English--such exorbitant fouling that it was tantamount to cheating by the referee to never warn Turpin once for the vicious rabbit punches he resorted to in every clinch. Sometimes he landed seven or eight at a time, with never a warning from the referee, whose English sense of justice told him the only thing to do was warn both men, one for rabbit punching and the other for being rabbit punched. Rabbit punches probably did fifty percent of the damage to Robby that night. But Turpin's jab was deadly, too. In clinches, he either yanked your arms off or rabbit punched. Coming in, he would dip so low that Robinson's hooks sailed over his head. Robinson could not adapt and was soundly beaten. Everyone knows he was on an extended European party and did not train up to the occasion. Still, it was an actual beatdown.

Never hook with a hooker, but always jab with a jabber. I don't know if Robinson studied the film of that first fight, but for the rematch in New York, it was obvious from the first round that he understood perfectly how Turpin had handed him his a*s on a platter. Instead of continually trying to tie the monster up, he stayed on the outside and counter punched. He reverted to his own jab, throwing it stronger than usual. In the live film you can hear his jab hitting Turpin's face. He even seemed to do more dipping than usual a la Turpin himself. Great victory, right?

Something was amiss with Turpin, I am convinced, and I am also convinced there was more to it than Robby's perfect adjustments. If you want to see how a genius boxer adjusts, watch those two fights in detail. Yet, something else was wrong with Turpin. He abandoned everything that had made him successful in the first fight, including his beloved rabbit punches. Search in vain for a jab, search in vain for a dip. Now why would he fight this way? Robinson's adjustments were perfect, but I do not believe they fully account for Turpin's torpid display. Was he sick? Paid off? Warned? His performance in New York was far worse than Robinson's in London. At least Robinson did the things he always did, though less sharp at them, but Turpin did absolutely nothing in the rematch. It was probably until Douglas fought Holyfield that a worse effort following a great performance could be found. Randy was not trying. The only thing he tried like hell to do was stay on his feet at the end. Average club fighters would have beaten him that night. All he had going for him was his durability and awkwardness.

What do you think about that?

[The Old LefHook]

They were competing in two different weight classes and for that reason whilst yes Robinson could of rematched Basora earlier - he was a welter trying out at middle effectively.[

He fought him before, he could have fought him again, the money was good.

I think Turpin was taking Robinson close again in the second fight and I would of have had him slight favorite if a third ever came off.

It was close, but Turpin was still doing almost nothing. The closeness was due to Robinson doing very little as well. And you have to admit that Turpin completely departed from the game plan which won the title for him. Turpin looked like a bum in fight II and a phenom in fight I. Was it Robinson's adjustments that caused all that? I don't think so.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes Robinson could of fought him again, Basora did make the list I put together of opponents Robinson could of met - but the weight was clearly an issue at that time for Robinson who after beating McDaniels next made it a key point of his post-fight statement.

I agree the money was good, but the money was always there with Robinson



Yes Turpin allowed Robinson to coast when he shouldn't of and Robinson picked his spots as he seemed to lack the legs to fight at pace - you're opinion has somewhat caught me off guard, I might have to go back and look it all over.

It''s the first I've ever heard somebody questioning Turpin's integrity in the second contest.

It caught me off guard too. I don't know why Turpin was two different men in those fights. For all the world, it looked to me as if he didn't even try. Heck, he knew how to get some success with Robinson.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes at the time of that year's Golden Gloves he was, but Robinson stated his opponent had already turned pro and that's why they'd signed to meet.

I don't believe Butler turned pro and he hadn't at that point in time as he competed in the following year's Golden Gloves - this time listed as based in Florida.

Turning pro can mean making an announcement to that effect, or having your first pro fight. You would not be banned from Olympic competition for an announcement you never carried through on. It seems highly possible that this is what happened. Perhaps a publicity stunt for both fighters, but more helpful to Jimmy.

Butler had an easy way out of again getting his butt KO'd by the phenom, in the race card insurance, making it easy for him to back out and stay an amateur and still look good, where he would never have to feel Robinson's punch again. Certain parties knew beforehand that even if racial pride were not enough to get the fight cancelled, it would not matter, for he was not turning pro anyway. Not now, at least. Why not go all the way and have a story prepared that it broke poor Jimmy's heart so bad when his grudge match was prevented from coming off by politics, that he up and stayed and amateur? *ell with it, he said.

Something like that is my guess as to what happened.

[The Old LefHook]

The thing I want to address now is the issue of ducking by Robinson. I don't have all the information, so I will probably need some help.

We might as well get real right now and just accept it that Ducking is one more category which defines a fighter's legacy, just as chin, punch, stamina et al do. Ducking is an unseen part of a fighter's record, present but unnoticed by the superficial glances of the majority. It lies beneath the surface of information, defracted by time and obscured in myth and apocrypha. The normal fan cannot assess the facts without a great effort and collation of diverse details.

I have only made such an effort with regard to Charley Burley, one of the fabled Black Murderers Row fighters, in many opinions the best of that mid-weight cadre of avoided black boxers of the 1930's, 40's & early 50's who fought each other a lot and got never a title shot between them from the recognized champions of the day. This at a glance, looks su****iously like the same old color line.

Similar to a neglected heavyweight cadre before them from Jack Johnson's era, composed of Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Harry Wills and a host of other fine pugilists, the Black Murderer's Row welterweights and middleweights struggled titantically between themselves for colored world titles.

Burley turned pro in 1936. By October 1942 Burley was facing Holman Williams for the colored middleweight title in New Orleans, a ritual they would often repeat, this being their second fight already.

At this time Robinson had been a pro for almost exactly two years, Burley for six years. Charley had already won the colored welterweight title of the world four years before. Also note that the war was already on.

Burley and Robinson were almost exactly the same size, though Robinson matured to his natural weight slower, for Burley was already a welterweight as an amateur, yet as a pro never weighed more than 162 for a fight. Robinson was a featherweight amateur. It is my guess that Robinson was a natural welterweight in his prime and Charley was a natural junior middleweight during his.

I have no information on how long Charley was able to make the welterweight limit, or what his fight to fight weights were, but Robinson won the welterweight title in 1947. By this time Burley was only three years away from retirement, and had been campaigning as a middleweight for at least five years. It hardly seems plausible that a man who was a welterweight in the amateurs and campaigned as a middleweight for most of his pro career and was near the end of it, could have made the welterweight limit any time between 1947 and 1950, when Ray was still defending welterweight titlist with a few exploratory middleweight bouts near the latter part of the time frame.

Charley was already bowing out and calling it a day by the time Robinson was exploring upward. There was a narrow window of opportunity for a fight during this late period as middleweights, but the fight was not demanded, maybe it was not even mentioned, there was certainly no public outcry for it that I know of, or any thing of the sort. I think it may be a latter day invention.

The charges against Robinson for Ducking Burley during this period are so minimal as to be negligble, and should be dropped, leaving only the earlier periods to be examined.

But we have previously seen that when Robinson was barely a two year old pro, Burley was already fighting for the colored middleweight championship. Yet it is more feasible that in this earlier period prior to his two middleweight fights with Williams, that Charley would still have been able to make the welterweight limit, though doubtful, in my mind, as he had been a pro for six years, but perhaps feasible, at least. That means that looked at through a magnifying glass, the charges against Robinson for this period are tantamount to: During his first year as a pro, Robinson avoided five year veteran Charley Burley, now considered one of the best fighters of the era. This is ludocrous.

Charges not only dismissed but laughed out of court.

That leaves only the middle period, the tip end of 1942 all the way through 1946 when Robinson won the title in December, to look at. Three years and a month or so.

We know Charley was already fighting as a middleweight, for starters; we know Robinson was a welterweight hoping for a title shot. The war was full on in 1943. It is also the year Robinson went into the service. Confusion, right? Big upset in routine, no doubt. Perhaps the welterweight hopeful was expected to get himself a weekend pass between USO shows with fellow cassion Joe Louis, and rush back for an over-the-weight fight with Murderers Row middleweight secret sensation Charley Burley. Are you starting to chuckle yet?

But wait. Was LaMotta really making the welterweight limit for those fights with Ray during this period? Ray was used to fighting guys thicker framed than himself, so why not Charley? Did Ray, hoping for a welterweight shot, in the service with his routines interrupted and his comfort zone imploded, have the least obligation or demand to face Burley? Of course not.

Once Ray was out of the service, faking amnesia and recovering, that was not a good time for Burley either. Quite understandable.

We are running out of window during which Robinson could have avoided Burley, but there is still time, if we hurry. All of '45 and '46, up until Robby finally got his hands on the welterweight title, is that window.

Ask him to be an idiot. Robinson will not comply. Just when your welterweight title chances are shaping up, Ray, will you please go fight middleweight Charley Burley? Seven people worldwide are whispering you cannot beat him. Oh, he will not bring in a lot of dough, either. Robinson receives misdemeanor warning without citation

Decision, First period: Guffawed out of court.

Decision, Middle period: Robinson warned without point deduction

Decision, Later period: chuckled rather than guffawed out of court.

Conclusion: Because of his P/4/P designation, Robinson is a 20th century icon on a par with Yeats and Picasso as supreme among their peers. With regard to the matter of ducking Charley Burley, the court sees no reason to disturb this.