Sonny Liston would dominate if he fought today!

[StefanTosic]

Sonny Liston would smash the life out of anyone today and then take an 8lb **** in the ring

Wlad may be a problem but everyone else gets folded...

Very well said...

[Elroy1]

I remember those encounters and looking back and comparing to the lack of action you see these days just adds to the thoughts on how strong boxing was then compared to now. Your seeing two men get to throwing combos right away and digging in to make an impression on each other. The lack of action today is the reason why the sport has fallen so low and it only depends on a few to keep any interests going.
Boxing has dipped down to the wrestling themes when you need a "heel" bad guy and a "hero" good guy to hype a match.

What ever happened to two likeable fellows who show respect for each other and sign to fight without the juvenile antics that accompany todays BS!

I believe we'll see some improvement once Floyd is absent and then the retirement of Wlad will help generate some interest in the heavyweights as they fight one another to declare a dominate force. The sport needs this badly.
Ray

You enjoy the rough, exciting and scrappy fights, which characterised boxing of old.

I understand that.

But you have no respect for technical superiority.

For you, having the heart and chin to take shots from your opponent all night long is what it takes to be a fighter.

I agree that's important too and like watching it myself (I am an Evander fan too).

But the guys who are technically brilliant and can smash their opponent up without barely getting hit themselves they are the true masters of the game. Your SUPPOSED to take care of yourself in the ring. And your not SUPPOSED to get bashed up yourself!

[billeau2]

You enjoy the rough, exciting and scrappy fights, which characterised boxing of old.

I understand that.

But you have no respect for technical superiority.

For you, having the heart and chin to take shots from your opponent all night long is what it takes to be a fighter.

I agree that's important too and like watching it myself (I am an Evander fan too).

But the guys who are technically brilliant and can smash their opponent up without barely getting hit themselves they are the true masters of the game. Your SUPPOSED to take care of yourself in the ring. And your not SUPPOSED to get bashed up yourself!

Yeah....Vlads last opponent for example, a man who showed great timing, never late ...was the entire package! what a UPS driver indeed!

Elroy...You wouldn't know technical excellence if it rung your head with a bell over it. Lol

[Elroy1]

Yeah....Vlads last opponent for example, a man who showed great timing, never late ...was the entire package! what a UPS driver indeed!

Elroy...You wouldn't know technical excellence if it rung your head with a bell over it. Lol

I did not say that every fighter was technically brilliant.

In this day and age there is an enormous amount of pressure to present a cautious style though, this is why we see such tentative fights, because shots are so hard, and nobody WANTS to get hit by them.

There are basically 3 categories I see at HW now.

Much longer guys who utilise their advantages, some of which (Wladimir) also possess superior timing and accuracy, technique and reflexes and stategy to dismantle opponents, as well as thrashing power.

I see guys of similar size to previous HW's as well (although not really, lean tissue wise they are much larger and far more athletic than any prior HW of the same mass in fact). But NONE of these guys fight anything LIKE what those guys did in the past. Because simply, they CAN'T! If they tried, they'd be knocked out, that's why we don't see that anymore! These are the guys with ultra slick skills and excellent counterpunching. Guys like Haye, Holyfield, Ibragimov and so on.

And then there are some guys, like Leapai, who aren't particularly long or skilled. But what they have to compensate is extreme power but more importantly an iron chin. Not mythical "iron chin" like Ali, but REAL iron. These are the bulls of the division who can come forward and withstand copious amounts of damage, looking for that 1 big punch. Previously someone like Frazier could do this too. Now a days it would be COMPLETELY unacceptable for a guy like Frazier to fight like that! He would have to transform into the ultra athletic, ultra skick, expert counterpunchers that characterise the little guys of HW today.

Quite simply the notion of Sonny Liston, as a "boxer-puncher" today, is ludicrous.

[Ray Corso]

Sonny I was an Olympic team coach at the Olypic training center from 1979 through 1983. During that time I was the Region One coach for that section of the United States, I also was the Conn. J.O. Chairman along with an advisor with the National P.A.L. Chairman that regulated the Regional & National P.A.L
Championships (Police Athletic Leagues). I also was the Golden Gloves coach and advisor for 10 years.

Sonny once again I'm getting bored with you, if you want to talk boxing your welcomed to ask some questions but you telling what I know and what I like is a joke.

The fighter I consider the best is Sugar Ray Robinson, there is no finer example in my opinion of a fighter fighting out of a boxer form than he!

The boxing you think your describing is what amateur boxing used to consist of. A jab has no more meaning than a hard punch unless its you getting hit with it of course.

Pro boxing is chess with consequences not checkers popping all over the place!

Not getting bashed up............you do realize that theres very few Willie Peps
in the business and if you think what Wlad and Floyd resort to is technically
sound your foolish. There's nothing brilliant about leaning and throwing one punch at a time.

That's enough for sonny to absorb for tonite,
oh yeah a few notables on my teams back then would be Mike Tyson, Joey Camache, Ray Olivera to name a few. All were World Champions and represented my team with class and style. Something that you lack.
Ray.

[Elroy1]

Sonny I was an Olympic team coach at the Olypic training center from 1979 through 1983. During that time I was the Region One coach for that section of the United States, I also was the Conn. J.O. Chairman along with an advisor with the National P.A.L. Chairman that regulated the Regional & National P.A.L
Championships (Police Athletic Leagues). I also was the Golden Gloves coach and advisor for 10 years.

Sonny once again I'm getting bored with you, if you want to talk boxing your welcomed to ask some questions but you telling what I know and what I like is a joke.

The fighter I consider the best is Sugar Ray Robinson, there is no finer example in my opinion of a fighter fighting out of a boxer form than he!

The boxing you think your describing is what amateur boxing used to consist of. A jab has no more meaning than a hard punch unless its you getting hit with it of course.

Pro boxing is chess with consequences not checkers popping all over the place!

Not getting bashed up............you do realize that theres very few Willie Peps
in the business and if you think what Wlad and Floyd resort to is technically
sound your foolish. There's nothing brilliant about leaning and throwing one punch at a time.

That's enough for sonny to absorb for tonite,
oh yeah a few notables on my teams back then would be Mike Tyson, Joey Camache, Ray Olivera to name a few. All were World Champions and represented my team with class and style. Something that you lack.
Ray.

It's not your credentials that I call into question.

It's your blind nostalgia and obvious bias.

Just answer me the simple question I posed earlier that was ducked.

If a 205lb plodder like Louis, a 215lb plodder like Liston or a 210lb runner like Ali was a feasible (much less dominant) formula to employ today for success at the upper echelons of pro HW boxing...

WHERE ARE THEY?!

[LacedUp]

I did not say that every fighter was technically brilliant.

In this day and age there is an enormous amount of pressure to present a cautious style though, this is why we see such tentative fights, because shots are so hard, and nobody WANTS to get hit by them.

There are basically 3 categories I see at HW now.

Much longer guys who utilise their advantages, some of which (Wladimir) also possess superior timing and accuracy, technique and reflexes and stategy to dismantle opponents, as well as thrashing power.

I see guys of similar size to previous HW's as well (although not really, lean tissue wise they are much larger and far more athletic than any prior HW of the same mass in fact). But NONE of these guys fight anything LIKE what those guys did in the past. Because simply, they CAN'T! If they tried, they'd be knocked out, that's why we don't see that anymore! These are the guys with ultra slick skills and excellent counterpunching. Guys like Haye, Holyfield, Ibragimov and so on.

And then there are some guys, like Leapai, who aren't particularly long or skilled. But what they have to compensate is extreme power but more importantly an iron chin. Not mythical "iron chin" like Ali, but REAL iron. These are the bulls of the division who can come forward and withstand copious amounts of damage, looking for that 1 big punch. Previously someone like Frazier could do this too. Now a days it would be COMPLETELY unacceptable for a guy like Frazier to fight like that! He would have to transform into the ultra athletic, ultra skick, expert counterpunchers that characterise the little guys of HW today.

Quite simply the notion of Sonny Liston, as a "boxer-puncher" today, is ludicrous.

Did you just put Leapai and iron chin in the same sentence?

[Elroy1]

Did you just put Leapai and iron chin in the same sentence?

Leapai, Wach, Puritty, Chisora, Povetkin, Brewster, Peter etc etc etc.

All of these guys, just to name a few, have sustained multiple punches from truly enormous punchers in many encounters.

The fact that Leapai was stopped by Wladimir or Chisora was stopped by Haye should not detract in any way how tough these opponents really are.

We are not talking about the slogging shots of Foreman, the snail paced unco thuds of Liston, or the paint dabs from Ali now. We are talking about missies.

[Ray Corso]

Their aren't great fighters in every generation so the combination power punching of Joe Louis has never been seen since his activity. The closest to his ability I think would be a prime Holyfield. As for Liston the difference between him and the boys today is the fact that a prime Liston through punches the guys today don't. Who today throws a 1/2 then finishes with a hook then slides off jabbing or better yet continues to step forward with "more punches"!
As for Ali you obviously don't realize that Ali's movement was never seen before and I doubt you'll see it again. His hands and feet were ridiculously fast
and you can't hit what you can't see and those are facts.
As for the plodder BS try to understand that the shutter speed your watching is completely different than todays equipment can capture when looking at Joe Louis box in the 1930-40's! Also the Liston era late 50s-60s everything is not as crisp and the black and white film has less details. Filming has changed dramatically for the better........boxing not so much.

..."where are they"? hell where's the Sugar Ray Robinsons or Benny Leonard's how about Kid Gavelan or Ezzard Charles why aren't they around?
To your generation the Klitz and Mayweather and a few others are considered great because their head and shoulders above their competition so in a way they are great! Do not compare their era of greatness to fighters who fought great through their primes from the past. Try to learn the techniques that expose greatness in fighters instead of reading a record to see who they won or lost to. Form matters just as desire and willingness can reign over techniques occasionally. Evaluating talent takes a lot of experience and knowledge of the sport, you don't have very much right now, plus your very emotional!
nite sonny clean the hall way ...use a clean mop and vinegar with hot water!
Ray

[Elroy1]

Nice touch Ray.

For all your wisdom you've managed to explain away what can be seen clearly with 2 eyes in terms of specialties and poor video footage.

Your obviously emotional about your own times too, and quite frankly I think you are expected to defend your cause at all costs. Whether for financial gain or just status is uncertain.

You do realise, olden day footage is purposely "sped up" to make them look better right? Better check whether some of these rounds really go for the 2 or 3 minutes they are scheduled for

And these combinations, left, right, hook. Geez I've never seen THAT before!

And what's that? Followed up by hell a side-step and jab, or even MORE punches? Very technical stuff Ray. I was taught that **** in amateur!

But you say he did more of it anyway right? I know, these days there's a lot more 1-2 and out of there right?

Well, take a look at the bloody OPPONENTS!

How on Earth COULD Liston possibly have lost to a guy like ****ing Patterson if he tried! And this was a TOP opponent!

Ali's speed of hand and foot were special. That is and isn't true. The Ali of the 60's was very fast for a HW. Except Ali of the 60's was basically what we would today consider a CW!

And todays CW's are so fast and so fit they blow him out of the water.

The Ali of the 70's, the guy who was something that TODAY we would call a HW, his speed was good, but it was nothing SPECIAL! There are faster boxers than that Ali in many places. And quite often they all so back it up with either (a) defence, which Ali did not even know existed, or (b) a hard punch, which again, Ali never knew of!