Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter

[slicksouthpaw16]

** The vast history of boxing appears to be well beyond your grasp.

58 HOF type bouts Sam fought and won most of those bouts, mostly by KO. You sound ridiculous enough degrading Tyson and Rocky, and now Sam?

Really now, even an impaired Ali can stand on his own merits without you drooling all over him. Get a grip.

Name the guys that he beat that were better than Ali's opposition so we can compare them. If not, then you do not even believe what you post and is just spouting out anything.

[StarshipTrooper]

Name the guys that he beat that were better than Ali's opposition so we can compare them. If not, then you do not even believe what you post and is just spouting out anything.

Good stuff Southpaw!

Poet

[randy johnson]

George Foreman had a grossly padded career record of 76-5. He was a wild, swinging amateurish caveman if ever there was one. George, his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer he faced. He made his career by beating up on nobodies. George opposition was so bad on the way to the title he didn’t fight any has-beens, just never was’s. Just look at some of these opponent’s. Roberto Davila (16-15) barely broke .500. He went the distance with Foreman. Levi Forte (19-21-2) also went the distance with George. Gregario Peralta, who weighed less than 200 pounds, gave George fits in two fights. The only significant fighters he beat were a fat, out of shape Joe Frazier and a glass jawed Ken Norton, who as previously noted lost to every puncher he faced. Foreman was also outboxed in his career by journeyman such as Jimmy Young, Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and Axel Schulz; the latter was robbed of the decision.

Lol you had me kid up to this crap.Tommy Morrison,Shannon Briggs and Axel Schulz were better than anybody Frazier fought besidese of course Foreman himself and Ali.Foreman also fought all of these people when he was past his prime.Let me name some people Frazier fought.The 190 pounder Dave Zyglewicz who the hell was he.Abe Davis who had a record of 5 wins and 22 loses at the time Frazier fought him.**** Wipperman,Mempis Al Jones,Billy Daniels,Jefferson Davis,Marion Connor,Tony Doyle,Ron Stander and i could go on naming bums after bum after bum.But you act like ever person Frazier fought were hall of fame legend beaters right just to prove your point by putting down other fighters.
Frazier weighed 210 against Marion Connor and 217 against Ron Stander but because he weighed 214 against Foreman that made him fat?He weighe more against Bob Foster than he did against Ali.Fools like you act like Frazier always weighed 205 like he did against Ali.The real point is Foreman crused him like a child and would of done it no matter how much Frazier weighed.Foreman struggled with boxers?Lol he only lost 5 times in his career so i guessed most guys were to dumb to avoid him right?Wait I found another bum on Frazier's record.George Scrap Iron Johnson who was 11-15-4 when Frazier fought him and he went the distance.At 37 Frazier couldn't even beat Floyd Cummings but at 48 Foreman could still be a talented hard puncher like Shannon Briggs.Oscar Bonavena do you remember him..you know another slow wild swinging so called caveman who beat Frazier in their first fight.Didn't he knock Frazier down twice?Yeah i believed he did knock the great fighter who ever lived Frazier down 2 times in one round.
If you want to talk about ducking fighters why didn't Frazier fight Lyle or Young if they were so bad of fighters in your book?Frazier rarely fought anybody worth mentioning and when he did he lost.He only had 37 fights in his pro career yet Foreman had 40 by the time he fought Ali.At 38 Foreman was making his comeback but by the time Frazier was 34 he was washed up.If Frazier was so skilled as you claim and Foreman was so unskilled then why was he able to have a much longer and better career?
You say Ali was overrated which he is but who else did Frazier beat for you to consider him a legend?Quarry?Well Ali beat him too...Bonavena?As i said Frazier lost to him in their first bout.Wait was it him beating Jimmy Ellis a blown up middleweight..was that the fight that made you think Frazier was this unbeatable god?Frazier was easy to hit because if anything Frazier was slow.Again if Foreman was so unskilled he would of been hit more in his prime than Frazier and his career wouldn't have lasted until he was almost 40.Foreman lost because of his ego even when he was past his prime but Frazier lost because the other fighter was just far more skilled them him.
I will give you this though Ali was extremely overrated.Ali was almost knocked out by the 180 pound Henry Cooper lost to the 180 pounder Doug Jones both in his so called prime.Ali struggled with fighters like Chuvalo and Wepner (2 fighters the so called bum Foreman crushed) Ali couldn't beat Leon "Look at the size of my gap tooth" Spinks when Ali was 35 or 36 but Foreman could beat a world class boxer like Michael Moorer when he was 45. At 38 or 39 Berbick beat him yet Foreman was going toe to toe with a undefeated Holyfield when Foreman was 42.
Alot of fighters are overrated if it be Ali,Marciano because of his skin color or to Sugar Ray Robinson a guy who pretty much avoided fighting black fighters he knew he couldn't beat.But if you want to nuthug one fighter by putting down another just make sure you have valid points to make...which by the way Frazier you have none.

[sleazyfellow]

jesus christ randy johnson, you sure wrote alot...Everybody has diffrent primes, ppl like dempsy, frazier, and tyson had very short primes and after they became champ they werent as active, if they were Im sure there would have been more title defenses.

Foreman was lucky to get moorer of all ppl, we knew he couldnt beat evander. Ali had ALOT more tough fights than foreman did, so to mention the fights when he was a shell of his former self doesnt count, nobody really thinks joe louis was prime for marciano.

Being hit alot doesnt mean his career would be shorter, just look at chuvalo, he got hit by everybody but yet he lasted for a good while, so that doesnt count, it all depends on the person.

[1SILVA]

I didn't write this article, so don't get mad at me. But the article is absolutely correct. Ali is a bum.

“Float Like a butterfly, sting like a flea many bums did whip Muhammad Ali.”

Lets review Ali’s record and briefly the career records of his opponents.

Trevor Berbick (50-11-1). Berbick had a decent record but lost practically every time he stepped up in competition. He was starched in one round by Bernardo Mercardo before beating Ali. Berbick was also beaten by less than stellar competition such as S.T. Gordon and Jimmy Thunder, but Ali could not beat him. Berbick made Ali look slow and lethargic. Where some all time greats all had their share of journeyman that they faced, they beat them. Ali lost to a number of journeyman type fighters. At a similar age as Ali in this fight, Ray Robinson who was Ali’s hero was still beating fighters of this caliber. At age 39 Robinson lost a highly disputed draw to Gene Fullmer in a title fight. Ali lacked the greatness to accomplish the same feat. It was a clear victory over the so called “Greatest.” Berbick retired him.

Larry Holmes (69-6) The best fighter Ali ever faced. What happened? At an age where Lennox Lewis was beating Vitaly Klitschko (32-1), Ali was completely outclassed and dominated failing to win a single round while being stopped by a fighter who could do everything he could do better. Did any heavyweight champion ever look so worthless in a title fight as Ali did against Holmes? Joe Louis, who had only 4 fights in the previous 8 years, at least won some rounds and landed some punches against Ezzard Charles and was competitive at a similar age against Rocky Marciano swelling his eye with his jab and made a fight of it. But Ali, who weighed only a single pound more for this fight then he did for Foreman a few years earlier, could not win a single round against Holmes. The NY Times reported, “In 10 rounds, he (Ali) landed fewer than 10 solid punches.” Ali simply did not have the ability to deal with a bigger, stronger, superior technical fighter with a better jab.

It should be noted that Holmes also feasted on a lot of inferior competition. Look at some of the careers of his title defense opponents; Ossie Ocasio (23-13), Mike Weaver (41-18), Lorenzo Zanon (27-6-3 ko’d 5 times in 36 fights), Scott LeDoux (33-13-4), Lucien Rodriguez (39-12-1), and Renaldo Snipes (39-8) nearly knocked Holmes out with one punch. Unlike Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano who defended against seasoned experienced veterans Holmes (and Ali too as well shall see) fought mostly green, inexperienced amateurs that made them look better than they were and sometimes those kids made them look bad! Holmes defended against such callow opposition as Tim Witherspoon (15 fights), Leon Spinks (14 fights), Ossie Ocasio (13 fights), David Bey (14 fights), Bonecrusher Smith (15 fights), Carl Williams (16 fights), and Marvis Frazier who had only 10 pro fights! How such a fighter could be considered great beating a slew of inexperienced amateurs defies intelligent reasoning. Yet this same fighter beat Ali 10-0 in rounds and made him quit on his stool.

Leon Spinks (26-17). The worse heavyweight champion ever. He only won the title because he beat an over-rated Muhammad Ali. This bum Spinks had only 7 pro fights at the time and DIDN’T WIN all of those. Spinks was such a huge underdog that Las Vegas bookies would not give odds on the fight. Yet he gave Ali an ass whipping. He swarmed over him and gave him no room to breathe and won easily proving Ali was not close to “The Greatest.” Ali couldn’t deal with real pressure from a fighter who was not fit to be on Joe Louis “bum of the month club.” Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career more than either Charles or Walcott and he had half as many fights. He was even knocked out by some guy named John Carlo in one round who was in his pro debut. Yet Ali could not put this hapless china chinned chump down in 30 rounds of fighting in 2 fights?

There is more to the story. Some will no doubt try to say Ali was old, but he had just turned 36 the month before. To get more perspective on the age issue, consider that at 36 years of age, Larry Holmes stopped David Bey (6’3”, 233 lbs), and defeated Carl Williams (6’4”, 215 lbs), in back-to-back fights. (Note this is quoting Revolver and he is error Holmes was born in ‘49 both fights were before his birthday in Nov. of ‘85 so he was 35. Math, along with other subjects such as logic, must not one be of Revolver’s strong points) And just shy of his 38th birthday, Lennox Lewis as mentioned previously, beat Vitaly Klitschko (6’7” 248 lbs) who was the number one rated contender. It was Lewis’ third fight since turning 36. His two previous opponents were Hasim Rahman (236 lbs, 35-2) and Mike Tyson (234 lbs, 49-3). He won both of those fights by knockout. But Ali could not defeat an amateur opponent who weighed less than 200 pounds and had only 7 pro fights and not all of those were wins? Losing to a green kid like Spinks proves how truly over-rated and over-hyped Muhammad Ali is to this day.

Spinks who at 6”1 ½” and a 76” reach beat Ali with a simple plan. Spinks used aggression, jabs and pressure to force Ali to the corners and outwork him. The NY Times reported, “Ali danced and jabbed, danced and jabbed and took Spinks shots in an apparent effort to let the St. Louisian, who at 197 ½ pounds was outweighed by 17 pounds, expend his energy.” But it was to no avail against an inferior challenger determined enough to beat him.

Of course people will write the loss off as an old, out-of-shape Ali losing to a young, hungry although completely inexperienced opponent. But an examination of Ali’s career reveals few significant wins, a number of defeats, several close calls where he was almost knocked out, many controversial wins, and alleged fixed fights, as well as a fight where he was completely dominated (not winning a single round) and stopped by a fighter who is considered his inferior to this day by those who are blinded by their infatuation for this over-rated, over-hyped media phenom. However, a clear-eyed, realistic boxing historian sees Ali for the phony that he was.

Before moving on, I must pause and summarize what we have thus far learned: Ali lost three of the three fights discussed so far! He was clearly beaten by Trevor Berbick (a journeyman), completely dominated by Holmes who proved a better technician could not only defeat him, but utterly dominate him Ali failing to win a single round or even land a significant punch in the entire fight, and he was beaten and battered by an amateur with less than 7 pro fights and not all of those wins!

Earnie Shavers (73-14). Shavers was one of the more experienced opponents that Ali fought, but he was a one-dimensional raw slugger with no chin and few if any real boxing skills. He had a padded record of 54-5-1 at the time. He was knocked out 7 times in his career and lost 14 times. He made his reputation by knocking out nothing but tomato cans. He lost to everyone he fought who could box even a little. His losses include such stellar names as Stan Johnson, Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, Walter Santemore, George Chaplin (some relation to Charlie I think), and Brian Yates. He also lost to every good fighter he faced including Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle. Hell, even the totally skill-less Tex Cobb beat him clearly. Ali proved that he couldn’t break an egg by failing to knock out this glass-jawed winging Neanderthal. Ali was hurt several times in this fight, staggered and rubbery legged but his opponent a one punch at time over-rated shoemaker could not finish the job that a real fighter would.

Alfredo Evangelista (62-13), a typical talent-less European fighter with no skills. This bum twice lost to Lorenzo Zanon (27-9-3 with only 9 ko’s). In fact his last fight was a loss to Zanon. Evangelista coming in to face Ali had never before been beyond 8 rounds. The NY Times reported that Evangelista looked “soft” at the weigh in and didn’t look like a real fighter. ONCE AGAIN we see that Ali prefers to defend his title against unproven inexperienced opposition or talentless one-dimensional punchers rather than boxers of any real skill who always troubled him.

Evangelista lost to every notable heavyweight he fought. He was knocked out by none other than amateur Leon Spinks in only 5 rounds and was also starched in 2 by Ali imitator Greg Page. Anders Eklund (19-5) also knocked him out. This worthless pile of crap made Ali look like a fool. Although Ali clearly won the Times wrote that Ali “did not look sharp” in this fight.

Saying Ali is a bum is like saying Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan and Jim Brown were bums. Get over it; Ali was the biggest star boxing ever had.

[bojangles1987]

That was one of the funniest, most ridiculous, most insane things I have ever bothered to read. It's scary that people might actually believe it.

[princemanspoper]

Lol,seriously,Why on earth would you bump this after 16th months? It was all but dead and buried and you revived it lol,I dont know

I thought it was a pretty funny and well thought out article,It was a blatant troll article,If you remember there was also an article he wrote called "Joe frazier was not a great fighter"

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=69355

[1SILVA]

Lol,seriously,Why on earth would you bump this after 16th months? It was all but dead and buried and you revived it lol,I dont know

I thought it was a pretty funny and well thought out article,It was a blatant troll article,If you remember there was also an article he wrote called "Joe frazier was not a great fighter"

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=69355

People actually agree with this article, that is the sad part

[boxingbuff]

I bet that it "burns you up" Muhammad Ali was named Athlete of the Century!!

Ali was named Athlete of the Century by Sports Illustrated,USA Today,and other magazines!!

[Kid McCoy]

It's actually a clever satire on the way some people rate fighters; they start with basic facts, and spin them all into negatives, akin to the way a certain poster was breaking down Lennox Lewis' career in the other thread.