Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter

[butterfly1964]

And what does training have to do with what we SEE from actual fight footage that we can judge for ourselves?

because seeing ali for that long made dundee become able to see things that me and you wouldn't about ali's game.

[Yogi]

because seeing ali for that long made dundee become able to see things that me and you wouldn't about ali's game.

That's in training, though.

And what you seem to have trouble grasping is we can all watch Ali during that time and come up with what we view as his most impressive performance(s) by what WE actually SEE from those fights.

P.S. When did you think Ali reached physical maturity as a fighter, Butterfly...in your own opinion?

[Southpaw Stinger]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

I'd never have put Braddock in the top 10. I can't beleive Dundee put Marciano above Foreman + Liston. Still, we all have different tastes.

[butterfly1964]

That's in training, though.

And what you seem to have trouble grasping is we can all watch Ali during that time and come up with what we view as his most impressive performance(s) by what WE actually SEE from those fights.

P.S. When did you think Ali reached physical maturity as a fighter, Butterfly...in your own opinion?

well, either williams or folley was IMO his best performance, but ali never actually reached physical maturity.

[Yogi]

but ali never actually reached physical maturity.

Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

[butterfly1964]

Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

well, then maybe dundee didn't know that ali would mature even more.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Although Dundee said that Ali had his best 3 years banned from boxing and he also said that he would have destroyed everyone in his path.

[butterfly1964]

Although Dundee said that Ali had his best 3 years banned from boxing and he also said that he would have destroyed everyone in his path.

exactly. including frazier.

[BKM-]

Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

If thats true than you're probably right about ALi being matured physically.

Butterfly, you should be happy about that. It would be F'd up if Ali never became the fighter he really was.

[Yogi]

well, then maybe dundee didn't know that ali would mature even more.

Those words were from Dundee were from the 80's, Butterfly, so at that time he would obviously have hindsight to benefit him if he so desired.