Who thinks the FIRST clay-liston fight was fixed?

[travestyny]

- -Dunno from experience because I don't bet on anything much less crooked boxing.

If a mobster, they could bet on anyone via phone or ringside. Point is no way Sonny quits a fight without permission.

Why the rematch in Podunk, Maine barely accessible in 1960s America?

So the story goes, his manager stopped the fight.

As could be expected, there were cries of "Fix!" although it would be medically impossible to fix a fight by tearing a muscle in a fighter's arm. A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm. From a tear like this, the blood seeps slowly through the tissues; thus Liston could fight awhile before the arm went dead. But his most effective weapon had been spiked, and although he wanted to fight on and, perhaps, could have, his manager, Jack Nilon, stopped the whole business fast. "I made the decision," he said later. "Before Sonny could protest, Willie and I stepped in front of him and waved the referee off. Sonny spit out his mouthpiece and cursed me and cursed Clay. 'I can beat that bastard one-handed," he said.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/03/0...t-cassius-clay

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Dunno from experience because I don't bet on anything much less crooked boxing.

If a mobster, they could bet on anyone via phone or ringside. Point is no way Sonny quits a fight without permission.

Why the rematch in Podunk, Maine barely accessible in 1960s America?

I thought the change of venue to Lewiston occurred after the postponement and the subsequent threats of racial violence in Boston.

No other city wanted to touch it; it all got too heated, mob and race.

[travestyny]

All you have to do is look at the fight to discern this wasn't a fix.

Knockout blows being thrown in round 5 when Ali was blinded.

[QueensburyRules]

I thought the change of venue to Lewiston occurred after the postponement and the subsequent threats of racial violence in Boston.

No other city wanted to touch it; it all got too heated, mob and race.

- -Houston eventually became Ali headquarters for a couple of years.

[ron davis]

Whichever, was the betting favorite in their first fight, I'll take the underdog.

Liston was happy in taking a quick ko in 2nd fight.

A lot of fighters can make more money in losing!

[QueensburyRules]

Whichever, was the betting favorite in their first fight, I'll take the underdog.

Liston was happy in taking a quick ko in 2nd fight.

A lot of fighters can make more money in losing!

- -Liston was up and fight when Walcott stopped the fight.

But, yeah, any fighter can get friends or relatives getting good odds for him and throw a fight.

Much harder in team sports magnified by zero oversight by boxing. Then the boxing media who are sometimes part of that privleged cadre.

[Dariusz]

Liston was desperatly trying to KO Clay and Clay was out boxing Liston with speed and technique. No way was it a fix.

Agreed. The 2nd one was most probably fixed.

[Blond Beast]

Agreed. The 2nd one was most probably fixed.

Right. From what I remember Ali just outboxed Liston in the first fight. Frustrated him.
The second fight is most surely a fix. Liston was mob controlled. He also got death threats from the brotherhood apparently. Liston threw feather punches in that second fight. Even at 1/4 speed u can’t tell if the punch landed though. He almost looks to be determined to go down regardless. Ali looks surprised even. If he landed hard ud think ud see a different expression on his face.

[Willie Pep 229]

Right. From what I remember Ali just outboxed Liston in the first fight. Frustrated him.
The second fight is most surely a fix. Liston was mob controlled. He also got death threats from the brotherhood apparently. Liston threw feather punches in that second fight. Even at 1/4 speed u can’t tell if the punch landed though. He almost looks to be determined to go down regardless. Ali looks surprised even. If he landed hard ud think ud see a different expression on his face.

I am not arguing against your point, me thinks the same thing, somehow the fight was 'wrong.'

But in regard to Liston and the mob, the FBI had just blown the mob (The Octopus, i.e. IBC) apart and several people were serving big time in federal institutions, including Blinky Palermo, Liston manager.

The mob (in its relationship to prize fighting) at that point was pretty weak, and not really in a position to fix a fight.

e.g. the first fight ended up in Miami, where the Brothers Dundee were in their back yard. Its unlikely they get that fight in Miami back (in '59) when Farnkie Carbo was still controlling the managers 'union.'