Best defensive fighter middleweight+

[TBear]

Louis' footwork was painstakingly slow.

I think people now look back at a night with Billy Conn and make this assumption. But people that have seen a lot of him in his early years might not jump to this assumption.

[Humean]

I think people now look back at a night with Billy Conn and make this assumption. But people that have seen a lot of him in his early years might not jump to this assumption.

It was not an assumption on my part. I think I have seen every second of video footage that exists of Joe Louis and that includes the early part of his career. He was always slow on his feet. Besides i'm sure that anyone that has the interest to watch the Louis-Conn fight is also likely to watch most of Louis' other fights, including his earlier ones.

[Anthony342]

Yeah Louis' footwork was as slow as paint drying but I agree with Jap, footwork isn't all about speed and neither is defence but it helps and when you compare Louis' defence with the upper echelon of great defensive fighters from 160+, he doesn't make a top 20.

Now you can use all the technical terms you want, as if you're the only one that knows boxing but you actually have to look at the fights and Louis was tagged almost consistently by most of his opponents, many of whom were, let's be honest, bums.

Now if we were talking about great offensive fighters then you'd have a case because there was one thing Louis could do better than a lot of great fighters, when he was hurt, which was often, he'd come back harder and stronger and if he caught you, he'd finish you.

So then, with all the things I've read here over the years on Joe Louis, would it be safe to say he was at least one of the toughest, smartest, well trained boxers of all time?

[Salardo]

Vitali Klitschko
Mike Tyson was probably the fighter with the best defense when it comes to offensive fighters.
Henry Maske
Graciano Rocchigiani
Felix Sturm

[TBear]

It was not an assumption on my part. I think I have seen every second of video footage that exists of Joe Louis and that includes the early part of his career. He was always slow on his feet. Besides i'm sure that anyone that has the interest to watch the Louis-Conn fight is also likely to watch most of Louis' other fights, including his earlier ones.

I also have every second of him on video as well as most magazines regarding him and his career and I disagree, especially about Louis as a younger fighter.
He may have not been an Ali or even Holmes but that was because he did not need to be elusive. His strength was elsewhere. But consider other fighters tried what Conn did that one night and failed. Louis rarely lacked the movement or mobility to catch them.

[them_apples]

Bernard Hopkins???

And Duran at MW

[Humean]

I also have every second of him on video as well as most magazines regarding him and his career and I disagree, especially about Louis as a younger fighter.
He may have not been an Ali or even Holmes but that was because he did not need to be elusive. His strength was elsewhere. But consider other fighters tried what Conn did that one night and failed. Louis rarely lacked the movement or mobility to catch them.

I don't know why you, and perhaps others, are so reluctant to say that Louis was slow on his feet, it is as clear as day that he was. Apart from Conn who did he fight that really moved very well? Show me the fights where you think Louis showed quite quick foot speed.

[TBear]

I don't know why you, and perhaps others, are so reluctant to say that Louis was slow on his feet.

Because we watched him many times perhaps. And I watched plenty of other heavyweights for the last 45 years to draw comparisons.

Show me the fights where you think Louis showed quite quick foot speed.

No I am not going to put a lot of time into this, it is not worth my time to convince you other wise, which I doubt anyone could do anyways. It does not bother me that is your opinion.

[likeamulekick]

I don't know why you, and perhaps others, are so reluctant to say that Louis was slow on his feet, it is as clear as day that he was. Apart from Conn who did he fight that really moved very well? Show me the fights where you think Louis showed quite quick foot speed.

Was surprised how fast and elusive he was against primo carnera but quality wasn't great and he wasn't fast on his feet when you compare to other fast movers. I think I did underestimate Louis defence because a big percentage of it is his accurate hard and fast counter punching, add all the other factors in and although he can be hit, his defence is probably underestimated

[Humean]

Because we watched him many times perhaps. And I watched plenty of other heavyweights for the last 45 years to draw comparisons.

Sorry you and some others must be the only ones to have watched all the great heavyweights on film. My mistake...

No I am not going to put a lot of time into this, it is not worth my time to convince you other wise, which I doubt anyone could do anyways. It does not bother me that is your opinion.

Surely it wouldn't have taken much time if it was as clear as you think it is? Your lack of an answer sums it up perfectly.

Was surprised how fast and elusive he was against primo carnera but quality wasn't great and he wasn't fast on his feet when you compare to other fast movers. I think I did underestimate Louis defence because a big percentage of it is his accurate hard and fast counter punching, add all the other factors in and although he can be hit, his defence is probably underestimated

To say Carnera wasn't great and wasn't fast on his feet would be an understatement of a lifetime. Louis's defence was good but I don't think it belongs in the company of the best defences over 160 pounds.