Are We Sure Ali Was Better Than Louis?

[Hop]

Not trying to put a lid on this discussion at all, but just wanted to thank those who contributed what I think were some high quality posts. I certainly found it enlightening. For one thing, I did not know that there were so many educated boxing fans for whom this is at least a live question. I was under the mistaken impression that I would be in a very small group in asking it seriously. Glad to have been wrong.

[B-Bomber]

Size really does matter in boxing, two equally skilled fighters but one small and one large guy, the big fella always wins. There have not been very many seriously great heavyweights, but there are dozens of great middleweights and welters and especially in the historically amazing Lightweight division. .................................................. .................................................. ............................... .......................... Head to head comparisons in the heavyweight division are not really much like head to head comparisons in any other division, Middleweights have always weighed the same so I have no problem with this sort of question with other weights, a Tommy Ryan vs Bernard Hopkins type matchup I find far more interesting and is fair as a contest. The Heavyweight division is a bit like the original UFC, where there were no weight classes.

Very true,

in my opinion though the size factor is vastly overrated.

I do not want to derail the topic, not too much at least, so I'll stick to Louis. He fought and defeated much larger guys, Primo Carnera , Max Baer, Abe Simon. Primo Carnera was listed at 265 pounds and obviously larger than Louis.



In more recent times, Haye defeated Valuev.

Back to topic, I do not frown upon Ali being considered the greatest hw ever, as long as nobody tries to discredit Joe at least

I think Ray gave a perfect description of Louis and his greatness, I quote:

"His offense was filled with body & head work using both hands equally with power in both hands. He blocked and slipped then countered with both hands (something no one does today) he was methodilcal and in great shape to be able to punch hard early and late in his bouts!
He was the most complete Heavy then and now to me!".

Only thing I'd add is a subtle but terribly effective footwork.

[Chessman]

Jimmy Young

[rightsideup]

I have not read all the posts but for me ali and joe Louis are always going to be 1a and 1b in overall hw rankings. Joe was the harder puncher and ali was faster.

[billeau2]

I rate Joe Louis number one! His Methods & Techniques are superior to heavyweights from his era to the current contenders. He was schooled by a great trainer and continued to learn technique throughout his career!
His offense was filled with body & head work using both hands equally with power in both hands. He blocked and slipped then countered with both hands (something no one does today) he was methodilcal and in great shape to be able to punch hard early and late in his bouts!
He was the most complete Heavy then and now to me! Perfect size 6'2"/ 190 to 200lbs. Fought anyone and everyone! .....was an American Hero and a credit to his race................the Human race! Ray

Ali was anomaly, he did modst things wrong (leaning away, rarely body worked etc) but had the fastest hands & feet ever seen in the division. He was first known as the Sugar Ray of the Heavyweights! His laterial movement made him untouchable and his in & out moves astounded opponents!
I believe Ali at his very best would be unbeatable!

As usual....Ray has summed up my opine on the subject at hand.

[billeau2]

Knock off all the cruisers and bums and suddenly Louis only had 7 title defences! There's ya REAL Joe Louis!

Dear Tommo

Yu have become a credit to your race....would you now kindly consider joining the human race?

[tyger]

I have these guys @ 1 & 2. With #3 a ways below.

[mickey malone]

I have not read all the posts but for me ali and joe Louis are always going to be 1a and 1b in overall hw rankings. Joe was the harder puncher and ali was faster.

Faster feet and a stronger chin, but other than that, I've always leaned slightly toward Louis.. 1a & 1b is about the only way they can be separated really..
There's endless comparisons, but Ali takes it on resume, but possibly not h2h.
Is without a shadow, the oldest on-going debate in boxing.

[billeau2]

Go play in the street Tommo aka HWeightblogger: The adults are talking now.

Specifically:

"Go chase a car in reverse" The adults will clean the mess up later.


Ok now on to the comparison.

Louis and Ali represent a polarity. Both guys were incredible. Louis was a technician. If you hear him when he spoke, his way was that of a simple man... homespun, modest and sensible....Louis didn't need to make a lot of noise, he was well taught and he perfected his craft. Louis' genius went well beyond his hands. He had incredible economy of movement and a sense of how to stalk and set up the opponent for later. Louis also had deceptively fast feet when he was younger, but it took a lot to pull him out of his gear.

Ali was a phenomenon. He learned how to box based in things he could do that most people could not do. One interesting thing about Ali was that he understood angles better than people think. He actually has an economy of movement that is more akin to a martial artist than a boxer...Ali was an admirere of martial arts. Ali had body control and upper body movement that was second to none.

One guy was learned the other guy was a natural, not that these did not overlap in both....they are more to be contrasted than compared.

The only guy that I have seen that could move like Ali to some degree as a heavyweight, and punch like louis was T Stephenson, the great Cuban fighter. Jones was another natural phenom but took the easy road out and did not have the chin of Ali.

[AlexKid]

Yes we are sure.

Ali could take anything Louis could dish out, and he would out point him all night.