the myth that todays fat HW's are bigger and stronger

[New England]

Joe Frazier proven his durability against guys that would fight at cruiserweight if they were around today. Do you think if we put 230 pounds prime Brewster in cruiserweight without having him making weight he would get stopped? Brewster was taking huge punishment from much bigger guys who generally punched harder. Also, you think 200 pounders could take his punches the way bigger guys could?
And I'm not comparing Klitschkos to Foreman in anything other than punching power. And to beat Klitschoks he would have to take a lot of their punches and I don't beleive he could do it.


I said that only about Sanders and come on, using him as example that Joe could beat Klitschkos makes no sense. Corrie was unique fighter, comparing him or what he did to any heavyweight make no sense really.
Brewsters was by far lesser fighter than Joe in pretty much every technical aspect of the game, but at the meantime he was stronger physically, more durable, punched harder and was taller and longer, what makes the gap between him and joe closer in modern day heavyweight with size being big factor in aggressive styles of those two. Still, durability I see as the most important one against Klitschkos and Joe just wouldn't be able to get where Brewster get.
Still, all that I'm writing doesn't mean that Frazier would have less success today than Brewster had. If he fought today, I'd pick him to beat everyone other than Wladimir, old Vitaly too.


I saw him fighting at high pace and lasting longer without such trouble. In this fight he just hit the wall after 3 damn rounds, he was not tired, he was absolutely exhauster, he had nothing left. You really belive Wladimir is 3 round fighter?


No. Just no man, please be serious, that's just shows lack of knowledge. Brandon Rios is freaking junior middleweight. He was going in the ring with more than 150 pounds. That's more than 10% of his weight. Now you compare that to 205 Frazier going down to 200 having to "drop"(Not even a good word) 5 pounds? I tell you, even freaking strawwegiht dudes are dropping more than 5 pounds on their 105 body for weigh-in and you think Joe Frazier is more ripped then them ?


Oh, definitely
Saying that Joe Frazier wouldn't be able to go down to 200 from his super-human ripped hyper body is just ignorant and may only come from a guy that thinks that people who lived 50 years where some kinds of super-humans and rules does not apply to them. Please, stop.


Not simply because of size, that's one of factors. And majority is not always right, otherwise there would be no upsets in boxing you know.

dude just stop with this cruiserweight nonsense

cruiserweight is a nonfactor. 70's contenders would not be fighting at CW so just stop. CW make a tenth of the money a HW makes at a club fight or at the world level. joe frazier is not fighting there.


wladimir lost to sanders, purrity, and brewster

their size advantage over frazier would have nothing to do with their abilities against wladimir


frazier made his way inside on muhammad friggin ali in the early 70's when he was still terrific. he dropped him.

if he can do that to ali he can do it to wladimir. ali moved better even then, his jab was more active, and he had a terrific chin.

you're going to find people siding with me on this one. if you dont want to take my word with my 15 years of experience around boxing and the four years that i fought then i cant do anything for you. it's pretty damn clear from the way you reguard HW from a sh#t era as better than those from a great era based on literally 10-15 lbs that you know very little about fighting.

[StarshipTrooper]

i think size is a huge advantage in a fight. i think wladimir's biggest advantage would be his ability to tie frazier up by keeping him below his shoulders and leaning on him

just not these ones. brewster's size compared to frazier is what allowed him to beat wladimir? his size is what allowed him to do what frazier could not?

joe frazier made his way inside on an only mildly faded ali
he's getting inside on wladimir


the kid needs to go back to the drawing board. it's pretty clear we've all been watching boxing at least ten years longer than he has, and there is no substitution for that.

I think size can be an advantage, but it's only one of many factors involved in a fight and certainly not the most important. The problem with the people who I label as "size whores" is that they see size as not only the most important factor but also the determinate factor in a fight. To them, it always comes down to "fighter A is bigger than fighter B". That's why whenever a Klitschko is compared to a past great and you demonstrate that the Klitschko is at a big disadvantage in a whole laundry list of factors that going into boxing, they always return to "well Klitschko is bigger".

Poet

[New England]

Possibly, but still saying that Frazier wouldn't be able to go down to cruiserweight because he was so ripped and wouldn't be able to take those 5 pounds was not clever, or ignorant. I know you know that because you changed the subject. Will you admit that now, or your 15 years experience of watching boxing is making your statement right ?


Whatever you say about Ali and Klitschkos, both brothers punching power is on different level and they were twice as strong physically. Size itself isn't a factor, it's about physicall strength and punching power that's coming with it. Also, it was much easier to get inside with older Ali who at times just allowed to happen.
Klitschkos are all time great heavyweights. I'm not saying that Tyson Fury will beat Joe because he is bigger or am I? But Brothers are on different level to everyone that fights in this sh it era and It's really funny to me how shocking it may be for some people that I may pick two greatest fighters of their era over one of the best fighters of his era.
And I said I think Frazier beats everyone today other than Wladimir. If you think that everyone should just assume every old timer beats every modern heavyweight than oh well... .

i honestly dont care in the least if joe frazier could hop in a sauna and drain himself down to 200 lbs. that you continuously harp on it shows the petty nature of your replies. i don't care. nobody else cares. that's completely irrelevant. frazier is big enough, and its been evidenced.

i think prime vitali would stop joe frazier, but you never asked. go through my posts and you'll find that i pick fighters to beat fighters when i think they'll beat them and for no other reason, and that my opinions are quite informed. ask around. i dont give a damn about the year.

i think current vitali, who struggled a very good deal against derek chisora (who is THE poor man's frazier, for the record, and not the other way round, even though frazier is 40 lbs less,) would get stopped by frazier and retired if joe were in his prime.

i post more in NSB now than i post here. i'm not some nostalgic old man who wants to talk about the glory days. i'm 25 years old, kid.

vitali is NOT an ATG HW. h2h he is a rough go for anybody (mainly because of his chin and size and economical style,) but he's not an ATG by any stretch. you go on resume for that. he lost to the two best fighters he faced, and most of the other names on his resume mean next to nothing.

wladimir is a great puncher. one of the hardest i've ever seen. but the fact remains that he hardly even throws his right hand. you think he's bombing out joe frazier early with a right hand that he's never even throws because you watched him get beat up by george foreman when he was horribly shopworn, and that's laughable.

jab jab
grab. after many rounds you might start to see him uncork his right hand.

it's along those lines that wladimir could win a fight against joe frazier. the most important aspect of wladmir's style (afforded to him by his size, in this case,) would be his ability to clinch so effectively.

[Cardinal Buck]

^I'm pretty sure Frazier would stop young Wlad. He had a lot of issues back then which, to his credit, he's fixed or compensated for. Frazier would not be a good matchup for young Wlad.

[New England]

I agree, prime Vitali stops Frazier, current Vitaly I think last a distance because of his durability, but gets beaten.
And what's the deal with that kid ? Not that I mind, just curious.


He doesn't have ATG resume, but ability wise he's ATG to me. He'd be on top, higher or lower, but still on top in any era I belive and that's an ATG to me.
And what loss to Byrd really means? He wasn't even in his prime back then, look at how his style of fighting change after this fight, it was learning experience for him and despite that he was winning handily before he get injured. It was tough fight, but not close at all. That loss means nothing in reality, just as much as McCline loss to Valuev, Kyowas loss to Bustos and others like that. But somehow people are taking some weird things out of it.


Maybe you don't remember young Wladimir, the one before Stewart, from fights with Botha, Mercer, McCline. He wasn't always fighting the way he is now. That younger, more offensive Wladimir, I think he would stop Frazier in the first half.
New, cautious Wladimir would probably do it later. Still I don't see Joe lasting the distance.

the kid stuff is a nasty habit of mine and i apologize. your posts do appear a bit naive. you're a smart guy and you do know boxing, but i think you're missing some of the important stuff that can comes with a familiarity with the maturation / devolution of the sport. boxing peaked years ago.

i remember younger wladimir just fine. i've even revisited some of his fights recently when these sorts of threads come up. i really enjoy watching his brother's prime years. i'll even credit some of his shortcomings then as a product of his not yet hitting his physical prime as a gigantic man who takes many years to fill out. he takes a punch better now than he did then. he's still chinny, which is the last thing you want to be when being matched with ATG/historic HW. he was much more of a puncher in mentality, even if he didnt slug with quite the force he does now in his physical prime while weighing an extra.

why do you think that wladimir has a better chance against frazier exactly? because he'd be more willing to slug it out? really? aggression got wladimir stopped thrice by guys who are far lesser quan****** than joe frazier (overrated in some contexts, but let's face it, joe frazier is a legend.)

[New England]

I'm kinda naive person so maybe.
I don't really have too much historical knowledge so I don't know when boxing really peaked. I'm talking about fighters I know and about what I see. I can see that some people(not you) will just assume that if some divisions or sport in general was at higher level in the past, then every top fighter from that era will beat every modern fighter and that's naive to me.


You mean younger Wladimir? Older Wlad would be safer, with his cautious style. Younger Wlad would be in danger of punching himself out if Joe would be able to take his punches better than I think he could, but as I think what I think about his ability to take Klitschkos punches, I see younger Wladimir getting the job done earlier.

yes i should have clarified. i was asking why you thought younger wladimir would have the better shot. i think if wladimir has a chance it's to take him on right now, or from the past two years or so, when he's learned to really slow that pace down and institute the hard jab or double jab and then either step to the side or clinch. that's his best bet in my eyes.

stay the hell away from the left hook too. it went overrated for a period of years but now it's underrated. perhaps he couldnt stop wladimir cold with one, but you bet your ass he'd put him down if he landed them for many rounds

[pablo1]

Nowadays, HW's are only heavier and that doesn't mean stronger.
210 David Haye had no problem to clinch and push the 247 Chisora.

202 Chambers had no problem with the 225 Adamek's strength and without the left arm injury would've dominated Tomasz.

209 Huck (who didn't have any experience fighting HW's) gave lots of problems to the 229 Povetkin. And imo Huck won that close fight.

Being heavier doesn't make you stronger.

[New England]

Nowadays, HW's are only heavier and that doesn't mean stronger.
210 David Haye had no problem to clinch and push the 247 Chisora.

202 Chambers had no problem with the 225 Adamek's strength and without the left arm injury would've dominated Tomasz.

209 Huck (who didn't have any experience fighting HW's) gave lots of problems to the 229 Povetkin. And imo Huck won that close fight.

Being heavier doesn't make you stronger.

while i agree that superior strength is not inherent in larger men, you'll find on the whole that larger men are stronger, punch harder, take better punches, and take more out of your gas tank in terms of the exchange of punches and clinches.

[them_apples]

How did Roberto Duran take on power puncher Iran Barkley then, He's a natural 135.

Pacquiao (148) recently smashed Margarito, on fight night who was 165 lbs, probably more. Pacquiao I'd say is a natural LW as well.

Weight doesn't define structure or strength. Foreman and Norton weighed damn near the same, Norton was shredded. Foreman was leagues stronger.

Vitali has a good chin, Wladmir has a glass chin. They are both the same size.

Frazier is a smaller HW, with a great chin and incredible heart. Keep his proportions and scale him to 6'6 he'd easily be 250. I guarantee he's got a harder dome than Wlad.

Joe Louis was what 200 lbs when he destroyed buddy Baer, who was what 6'7? 260+ dude never touched weights in his life. Abe Simon, another huge dude. Not as skilled as the K bros but I'm using weight as an example as to how it doesn't always effect power or durability. Structure does.

in my book wlad is a 220 lb tall slim guy (6'6) with a glass chin who lifted weights and got pretty big, but it didn't effect his power or chin.

It's like that big buff guy at the bar with the thin face who did steroids you can tell cause his skull doesn't match his muscle mass lol. Still got a glass chin.

[Cardinal Buck]

How did Roberto Duran take on power puncher Iran Barkley then, He's a natural 135.

Pacquiao (148) recently smashed Margarito, on fight night who was 165 lbs, probably more. Pacquiao I'd say is a natural LW as well.

Weight doesn't define structure or strength. Foreman and Norton weighed damn near the same, Norton was shredded. Foreman was leagues stronger.

Vitali has a good chin, Wladmir has a glass chin. They are both the same size.

Frazier is a smaller HW, with a great chin and incredible heart. Keep his proportions and scale him to 6'6 he'd easily be 250. I guarantee he's got a harder dome than Wlad.

Joe Louis was what 200 lbs when he destroyed buddy Baer, who was what 6'7? 260+ dude never touched weights in his life. Abe Simon, another huge dude. Not as skilled as the K bros but I'm using weight as an example as to how it doesn't always effect power or durability. Structure does.

in my book wlad is a 220 lb tall slim guy (6'6) with a glass chin who lifted weights and got pretty big, but it didn't effect his power or chin.

It's like that big buff guy at the bar with the thin face who did steroids you can tell cause his skull doesn't match his muscle mass lol. Still got a glass chin.

You're a master of pulling out the obscure, against-the-grain example to prove your point.