Joe Louis vs both Klitschkos

[low blows]

ohhhh so your saying a 240 lb vitali is going to move just as quick as a 170 lb conn?

it just seems that one way or another your trying to compare conn to a 240+ lb klitschko, which is horribly flawed.

about the only thing any one should infer from conn vs louis, is that conn was an extremly good boxer.

perhaps if you really reach you might even be able to infer that being just 20 lbs lighter can give a boxer amazing advantages in speed.

Watch Louis vs Conn I. Conn at first out boxes Lewis (to be expected as he is full division smaller), then when Louis got desperate Conn out fought Lewis in the trenches until he got caught because Louis was so easy to hit. His salvos were able to wobble and roll Louis' head. What would a 250 pound man do to Louis? Buddy Baer dropped Louis and knocked him out of the ring. Fat punching bag Tony Galento dropped him. Louis was quite vulnerable against opponents big right hands. Like I said before he probably beats Wlad similar to Buddy Baer, but Vitali who leans back and is near impossible to hit on the chin he loses and loses badly.

[low blows]

If you can throw in the clinch, you can KO a Klitsckho. Brewster, Lennox, Sanders could all generate power at short distance.

Joe Louis was forced to deal with Grabbers like WLad on a boutly basis. Joe had a 255 lb Abe SImon leaning on him and was able to knock the hairy beast to his knees with short, hard blows. Joe was an expert at punching through holds and grabs to get the KO. Wlad wouldnt last 2 rounds against him.

Was Abe Simon able to clean out the division sans Joe Louis? No he was just another opponent for Louis. Wlad is clearly better than this guy. Also you could argue that Louis through no fault of his own didn't fight all of the best fighters in the division. He only fought one African American fighter pre WWII and he was a former sparring partner that he gave the equivalent of a gold watch to. Only after Jackie Robinson integrated baseball did Jersey Joe Walcott get his shot at the crown.

[Barn]

Was Abe Simon able to clean out the division sans Joe Louis? No he was just another opponent for Louis. Wlad is clearly better than this guy. Also you could argue that Louis through no fault of his own didn't fight all of the best fighters in the division. He only fought one African American fighter pre WWII and he was a former sparring partner that he gave the equivalent of a gold watch to. Only after Jackie Robinson integrated baseball did Jersey Joe Walcott get his shot at the crown.

Who else should he have fought?

[JAB5239]

Watch Louis vs Conn I. Conn at first out boxes Lewis (to be expected as he is full division smaller), then when Louis got desperate Conn out fought Lewis in the trenches until he got caught because Louis was so easy to hit. His salvos were able to wobble and roll Louis' head. What would a 250 pound man do to Louis? Buddy Baer dropped Louis and knocked him out of the ring. Fat punching bag Tony Galento dropped him. Louis was quite vulnerable against opponents big right hands. Like I said before he probably beats Wlad similar to Buddy Baer, but Vitali who leans back and is near impossible to hit on the chin he loses and loses badly.

I'll ask again, if Louis was so easy to hit than why did be never lose during his prime?

Oh, and Galento's flash knockdown of Louis came from a left hook.

[low blows]

Who else should he have fought?

Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins maybe Jersey Joe earlier not too sure as he was viewed as more of journeyman until around the time he fought Louis in 46'. Mike Jacobs knew Louis was cash cow he didn't want to put him in with opponents who couldn't draw fans. In general Black opponents didn't draw fans. Louis drew fans because he destroyed opponents.

[low blows]

I will say this both brothers would be easier to beat circa 1937 then today, longer fights hurt larger men and they wouldn't have been as large(throwing out PED's which both fighters probably use). Back in this era trainers knowledge of nutrition was poor. Heavyweights used to diet in training camp without red meat and little protein. These days most heavyweights eat well unless they are obese hitting camp. Also because the fights are 12 rounds opposed to 15 rounds less killer miles are needed for training.

[Daddy T]

No what I am saying is Conn out boxed and out fought Louis as a big Super Middleweight ie a Joe C beating up David Haye before he ran into a right hand bomb in the 13th. Joe Louis wasn't such an unbeatable force he probably lost to Arturo Godoy in their first fight and was dropped by right hands by numerous fighters. He could beat Wlad because of Wlad's glass jaw, but he could also be toyed with on the outside too. Vitali would easily beat Louis as he is probably the most effective akward fighter ever.

Theories like this don't mean anything, just because some small guy gave Louis trouble doesn't mean some big guy will, no big guy ever did. On the other hand a small guy (massively inferior to Louis in every way) quite clearly gave Vitali problems. So Vitali loses any of these 'Size' arguments pretty much hands down.

[M Bison]

Wlad atm i believe is too hard to Hit to Ko ..Joe would win against Wlad on points and he would Ko Vitali in 4 rounds
I know I know Vitali has never been Ko'd and Wlad has multiple times but I believe he is a much more complete defensive fighter

Vitali has argueabley the best chin around today so that seems a bit you know...
Fair play if you said he hits him so hard that he turns his eye into a vagina again like Lennox Lewis done several years ago, If you said that then I'd of agreed with you but he ain't knocking him out...

[nomadman]

well the subject of your point is 75 years of growth, i just want to make sure you maintain that claim just the same when in reference to ali vs the klitchkos and their 50 years of advancements compared to him, so really you entire argument depends on your opinion of ali vs klitschkos, as you would contradict your self removing any bit of respect your opinion had if you felt ali would beat either klitschko as the klitsckos would have over 50 years of advancements in their favor.

That assumes firstly that I consider such advancements to have occurred at a constant rate for the last 75 years, which I don't, and secondly that such advancements are the sole deciding factor in determining the outcome of fights like this, which again I don't.

Someone, I can't remember if it was you or not, posited that very little to nothing had changed in the way of training, equipment, supplements and so on since Louis's day. I disagreed with that with especial emphasis on the last part. I didn't say it categorically proves anything. It was something to bear in mind.

Ali has nothing to do with anything here.

as far as the punch, take the example i stated above, a robotic punch is like some one sticking their finger out. in a sense its just a big circle as the energy flows evenly at a steady pace on this circle untill your finger is pointed out.

now what happens when you use your thumb to flick your finger out, you shrink the circle using resistance so the same amount of energy is now bound up in a cicle much smaller then it should be, so when the energy becomes greater then the resistance it shoots outward at a much higher speed.

punching should be done is this method.

take the right straight, you push off with your foot body creates resistance shrinking the circle energy goes up into your hip, hip goes forward but your shoulder/upper body hasnt caught up yet creating resistance shrinking the circle, energy goes up into the lower back then upper back in an upwards vector till it hits your shoulder your body wants to go forward the while the energy from your back wants to go up, creating resistance, shrinking the circle and forcing the energy forward into your shoulder exploding down your arm.

klitschko is like a line of dominos, one knocks the next over which knocks the next over which knocks the next over ect till the punch. a robot, one gear moves another gear that moves another gear.

joe louis isnt even really comparable, hes a series of concentric circles collapsing on each other bounding the energy into tighter and tighter circles till it explodes out his arm reaching a much much much greater top speed at impact.

the whole method is known as kinetic linking and leverage if you want to look it up.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. But, and forgive me for belabouring the point, I still don't see how it applies to Wlad. Does he not do all of the above? Here's a snapshot of his left hook against Botha.



And another against Austin.



Here's a right against Haye:



Is he not turning his body and shoulders into the punch, whipping the punching arm into action? If he isn't then he's sure doing a good impersonation of it.

You're not going to find Wlad punching like Louis or Tyson or any of the other smaller heavyweights due to his style and his rather unique physical dimensions, but to say he punches wrong is just silly. He's about as textbook a puncher as you can get.

[them_apples]

theres a lot of ways to throw a right hand. Duran certainly knew how to throw it with venom. He threw it like a shot put and released his fist instead.

Wlad throws it textbook.

Louis lobs or hooks it, never threw it really straight, rarely anyone did back then.