Joe Louis vs both Klitschkos

[Spartacus Sully]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. But, and forgive me for belabouring the point, I still don't see how it applies to Wlad. Does he not do all of the above? Here's a snapshot of his left hook against Botha.



And another against Austin.



Here's a right against Haye:



Is he not turning his body and shoulders into the punch, whipping the punching arm into action? If he isn't then he's sure doing a good impersonation of it.

You're not going to find Wlad punching like Louis or Tyson or any of the other smaller heavyweights due to his style and his rather unique physical dimensions, but to say he punches wrong is just silly. He's about as textbook a puncher as you can get.

see its like this Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

kinetic energy is the energy of motion.

so with either klit they push off with their foot into their hip into their back and down their arm. the energy moving fluidly.

with louis, theres resistance at each point from internal leverage trapping this mass and velocity into a smaller point allowing it to build up in speed and inturn in energy as velocity is exponetially more important in the energy of motion then mass. this energy then travels to the next point where theres resistance trapping it and building it up, till the next point and the next point.

so with either klit its a fluid motion with out any resistance from the foot the fist, with louis its still fluid but theres bits of resistance that send the energy into a smaller circle and its this circle that the energy moves fluidly from.

thinking about it theres even more to it, a relaxed state that the smaller circle flows into allowing the energy to transfer from a state of resistance to no resistance, perhaps even its the relaxed state itsself that causes the resistance prior to the transfer.

the energy hits the relaxed state and flows, like a baseball being released, untill it reaches the next point of relaxation where we create resistance, build up more energy and release to the next point.

anyways louis punches like a whip, wlad like a robot.

its not necessiarly how you punch but id say its more muscular composition, muscualr placement, general motor skills, and muscular coordination working together with perfect timing on flexing and relaxing to generate a perfect whip like punch and not something thats robotic.

still frame pictures arnt going to tell anything about a boxer being robotic as its the motion itself it what it robotic not any one point in the motion.




and your claiming steroids is the main diffrence between then and now?

[them_apples]

see its like this Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

kinetic energy is the energy of motion.

so with either klit they push off with their foot into their hip into their back and down their arm. the energy moving fluidly.

with louis, theres resistance at each point from internal leverage trapping this mass and velocity into a smaller point allowing it to build up in speed and inturn in energy as velocity is exponetially more important in the energy of motion then mass. this energy then travels to the next point where theres resistance trapping it and building it up, till the next point and the next point.

so with either klit its a fluid motion with out any resistance from the foot the fist, with louis its still fluid but theres bits of resistance that send the energy into a smaller circle and its this circle that the energy moves fluidly from.

thinking about it theres even more to it, a relaxed state that the smaller circle flows into allowing the energy to transfer from a state of resistance to no resistance, perhaps even its the relaxed state itsself that causes the resistance prior to the transfer.

the energy hits the relaxed state and flows, like a baseball being released, untill it reaches the next point of relaxation where we create resistance, build up more energy and release to the next point.

anyways louis punches like a whip, wlad like a robot.

its not necessiarly how you punch but id say its more muscular composition, muscualr placement, general motor skills, and muscular coordination working together with perfect timing on flexing and relaxing to generate a perfect whip like punch and not something thats robotic.

still frame pictures arnt going to tell anything about a boxer being robotic as its the motion itself it what it robotic not any one point in the motion.




and your claiming steroids is the main diffrence between then and now?

are you serious with all this math? I can tell you right now from watching videos of Louis hitting the bag, he's just a fundamental puncher who throws nice short hooks. I highly doubt he's got any scientific advantage in the heavyness of the shot, what matters more is his ability to catch an oponent inbetween breaths in the body, hitting the right spots, and catching someone on the chin, even worse - when they aren't prepared for it. He often did that by throwing 5 punch combinations.

Theres no math here that will prove Louis punches harder, because I doubt he does. Size doesn't always matter but in this case it does when neither of the K bros are arm punchers.

Anyone who only talks about a knockout artists punching power only, I instantly know they have never boxed. I'm not some retired pro or anything, but this I know.

[Barn]

see its like this Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

kinetic energy is the energy of motion.

so with either klit they push off with their foot into their hip into their back and down their arm. the energy moving fluidly.

with louis, theres resistance at each point from internal leverage trapping this mass and velocity into a smaller point allowing it to build up in speed and inturn in energy as velocity is exponetially more important in the energy of motion then mass. this energy then travels to the next point where theres resistance trapping it and building it up, till the next point and the next point.

so with either klit its a fluid motion with out any resistance from the foot the fist, with louis its still fluid but theres bits of resistance that send the energy into a smaller circle and its this circle that the energy moves fluidly from.

thinking about it theres even more to it, a relaxed state that the smaller circle flows into allowing the energy to transfer from a state of resistance to no resistance, perhaps even its the relaxed state itsself that causes the resistance prior to the transfer.

the energy hits the relaxed state and flows, like a baseball being released, untill it reaches the next point of relaxation where we create resistance, build up more energy and release to the next point.

anyways louis punches like a whip, wlad like a robot.

its not necessiarly how you punch but id say its more muscular composition, muscualr placement, general motor skills, and muscular coordination working together with perfect timing on flexing and relaxing to generate a perfect whip like punch and not something thats robotic.

still frame pictures arnt going to tell anything about a boxer being robotic as its the motion itself it what it robotic not any one point in the motion.




and your claiming steroids is the main diffrence between then and now?

You can't use a single equation to prove your point.

[Spartacus Sully]

are you serious with all this math? I can tell you right now from watching videos of Louis hitting the bag, he's just a fundamental puncher who throws nice short hooks. I highly doubt he's got any scientific advantage in the heavyness of the shot, what matters more is his ability to catch an oponent inbetween breaths in the body, hitting the right spots, and catching someone on the chin, even worse - when they aren't prepared for it. He often did that by throwing 5 punch combinations.

Theres no math here that will prove Louis punches harder, because I doubt he does. Size doesn't always matter but in this case it does when neither of the K bros are arm punchers.

Anyone who only talks about a knockout artists punching power only, I instantly know they have never boxed. I'm not some retired pro or anything, but this I know.

hes robotic, likes foreman, or briggs even marciano at times and a bit a tyson too there's nothing wrong with being robotic, its just the truth.

ive already used math to prove that a 1.2-1.8 mph difference is = to 50 lbs, not showing that Louis punches harder but that its physically possible that he did and not a stretch of the imagination.

my point with this post is to explain what makes wlad a robotic puncher, not that Louis punches harder then him or that wlad is an arm puncher.

and really ALL THIS MATH??? its one equation. Ke=1/2M*v^2

[Superflo777]

hes robotic, likes foreman, or briggs even marciano at times and a bit a tyson too there's nothing wrong with being robotic, its just the truth.

IMO Vitali fights awkward, and very uncomfortable for opponents, but not robotic. For Wlad well yes you could say he is somehow, but certainly in an effective way.

[Cardinal Buck]

see its like this Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

kinetic energy is the energy of motion.

so with either klit they push off with their foot into their hip into their back and down their arm. the energy moving fluidly.

with louis, theres resistance at each point from internal leverage trapping this mass and velocity into a smaller point allowing it to build up in speed and inturn in energy as velocity is exponetially more important in the energy of motion then mass. this energy then travels to the next point where theres resistance trapping it and building it up, till the next point and the next point.

so with either klit its a fluid motion with out any resistance from the foot the fist, with louis its still fluid but theres bits of resistance that send the energy into a smaller circle and its this circle that the energy moves fluidly from.

thinking about it theres even more to it, a relaxed state that the smaller circle flows into allowing the energy to transfer from a state of resistance to no resistance, perhaps even its the relaxed state itsself that causes the resistance prior to the transfer.

the energy hits the relaxed state and flows, like a baseball being released, untill it reaches the next point of relaxation where we create resistance, build up more energy and release to the next point.

anyways louis punches like a whip, wlad like a robot.

its not necessiarly how you punch but id say its more muscular composition, muscualr placement, general motor skills, and muscular coordination working together with perfect timing on flexing and relaxing to generate a perfect whip like punch and not something thats robotic.

still frame pictures arnt going to tell anything about a boxer being robotic as its the motion itself it what it robotic not any one point in the motion.




and your claiming steroids is the main diffrence between then and now?

I think the equation for force is the relevant one, much more than kinetic energy.

[Spartacus Sully]

I think the equation for force is the relevant one, much more than kinetic energy.

f=ma is the energy required to move something, the f=ma is revelant to the movement of object impacted, not the impacting object.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer

usually what you punch is one of these to measure the acceleration in order to calculate force.

you could also video tape your punching bag with a yard stick or something behind it, and watch the video in slow mo to calculate the acceleration. use that coupled with the weight of the bag you can calculate the force transferred from your punch into the bag.

if you use f=ma in relation to the punch itself its in relation to the energy required to move your body at such and such rate, where as kenitic energy is the energy contained in that motion.

[Scott9945]

are you serious with all this math? I can tell you right now from watching videos of Louis hitting the bag, he's just a fundamental puncher who throws nice short hooks. I highly doubt he's got any scientific advantage in the heavyness of the shot, what matters more is his ability to catch an oponent inbetween breaths in the body, hitting the right spots, and catching someone on the chin, even worse - when they aren't prepared for it. He often did that by throwing 5 punch combinations.

Theres no math here that will prove Louis punches harder, because I doubt he does. Size doesn't always matter but in this case it does when neither of the K bros are arm punchers.

Anyone who only talks about a knockout artists punching power only, I instantly know they have never boxed. I'm not some retired pro or anything, but this I know.

Excellent response, although I do consider Vitali somewhat of an arm puncher. Of course his arms are nothing to dismiss.

[nomadman]

see its like this Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

kinetic energy is the energy of motion.

so with either klit they push off with their foot into their hip into their back and down their arm. the energy moving fluidly.

with louis, theres resistance at each point from internal leverage trapping this mass and velocity into a smaller point allowing it to build up in speed and inturn in energy as velocity is exponetially more important in the energy of motion then mass. this energy then travels to the next point where theres resistance trapping it and building it up, till the next point and the next point.

so with either klit its a fluid motion with out any resistance from the foot the fist, with louis its still fluid but theres bits of resistance that send the energy into a smaller circle and its this circle that the energy moves fluidly from.

thinking about it theres even more to it, a relaxed state that the smaller circle flows into allowing the energy to transfer from a state of resistance to no resistance, perhaps even its the relaxed state itsself that causes the resistance prior to the transfer.

the energy hits the relaxed state and flows, like a baseball being released, untill it reaches the next point of relaxation where we create resistance, build up more energy and release to the next point.

Out of interest, just where are you getting all of this detailed info on Louis and Wlad from? Is it just by looking at the respective fight footage? Or were the mechanics of Louis's punches actually analysed at the time? Even in the modern age it's hard enough to build up an accurate model of an athlete in motion, so I'd be extremely interested in seeing how they did the same back in the 1930s.

My own opinions of both fighters, for what it's worth, is that they generate their power in much the same way: text-book punching technique coupled with innate speed, explosiveness, accuracy, timing and the natural body movements spent from a lifetime honing their craft. I certainly don't see this vast difference between the two that you seem to see, and I've watched plenty of footage of both.

anyways louis punches like a whip, wlad like a robot.

I've read you post several times and this conclusion still comes out of leftfield.

Are you sure you're using the correct adjective here? Robotic implies slow, stiff, akward, when you've already said Wlad's motion is fluid and efficient, lacking resistance. Seems like "machine-like" would be a more appropriate tag to me. Perhaps even... "whip-like"? There's clearly some huge kinetic energy being built up there, as you can see from the pics or alternatively just watching a fight/HL of his. He doesn't just stick his arm out or move it in the motion of a punch like, say, Chris Arreola, or even to some extent his brother.

its not necessiarly how you punch but id say its more muscular composition, muscualr placement, general motor skills, and muscular coordination working together with perfect timing on flexing and relaxing to generate a perfect whip like punch and not something thats robotic.

Ah, OK.

I hate to pull this corny old line since we've both been putting a lot of thought and effort into this, but I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on that last point.

I think Wlad is one of the most text-book, explosive and fluid one punch punchers in heavyweight history. Combos? Almost nonexistant. Individuals punches? Sublime. In fact about the only thing he could do to improve his power would be to put more weight into his shots, but that's clearly a tactical and stylistic choice rather than a lack of technique/talent.

Really can't see how you can fault him anywhere else.

still frame pictures arnt going to tell anything about a boxer being robotic as its the motion itself it what it robotic not any one point in the motion.

Sure. I don't want to clutter up this thread with vids and pics just to debate a relatively quibbling point. The vids are easily available. I will post this one video though, which is fairly short and demonstrative of Wlad's general qualities as a puncher.



You can even hear Merchant waxing lyrical about Wlad's ath...

[Capaedia]

Neither Wlad nor Vitaly would ever lose to a nigger.

/

Except Ross Purrity, Lamon Brewster, Chris Byrd and Lennox Lewis