the most skilled boxers of all time?

[them_apples]

yeah B-Hop and Charles both good picks.

[IronDanHamza]

well clearly. But you are missing my point, he still would have been an excellent defensive boxer without speed. Take away Jones speed and what was left? Mayweather is a bit of both. Not quite to the extreme of Jones, but his defense is purely based on the quickness he can anticipate his shoulder roll. He's been getting hit more than we have ever seen him hit as of late, even in his last fight that he won.

Whitaker was well past his prime taking on a prime DLH. He was still un touchable. I don't know if the triangle theory works with defense but DLH landed a hell of a lot more on Mayweather, who I consider in his prime.

I understand what you're saying.

I would argue, though, that take Pernell Whitaker's god given reflexes away, and he would get hit alot more. Despite having a great skill-set, Ring IQ etc.

In the same way you're applying to Floyd Mayweather I think the same applies for Whitaker.

Both have great skill sets, ring IQ, don't rely entirely on god given talent, but without it, wouldn't be anywhere near as successful for anywhere near as long. Both are blessed with obvious God given talent and ability IMO.

In response to your point on Mayweather, I don't think his defence relies solely on quickness and speed at all. I strongly disagree with that notion. Are refelxes a big part of it? Absolutely. But, his technical ability, fundementals and startegy clearly, in my book, play a huge part in his success at the top level for over a decade.

I also don't think he is "getting hit more than ever before" at the moment either. He got hit more in the Augustus fight, for example, than he probably has in his last 3 fights.

As for the Whitaker-Oscar fight, well, he really wasn't untouchable at that point. He was clearly on the decline and Oscar was landing on him relatively freuquently. I mean, Oscar has a strong argument for winning that fight. It wasn't a robbery, it could have gone either way.

I would argue Mayweather got hit much less against Oscar than Whitaker did. Which obviously has to do with the fact that Mayweather was in his prime, Oscar wasn't and of course Oscar being in his prime agianst Whitaker and Whitaker being clearly on the slope of decline.

[IronDanHamza]

I would say Harold Johnson belongs reasonably high on the list.

[them_apples]

I understand what you're saying.

I would argue, though, that take Pernell Whitaker's god given reflexes away, and he would get hit alot more. Despite having a great skill-set, Ring IQ etc.

In the same way you're applying to Floyd Mayweather I think the same applies for Whitaker.

Both have great skill sets, ring IQ, don't rely entirely on god given talent, but without it, wouldn't be anywhere near as successful for anywhere near as long. Both are blessed with obvious God given talent and ability IMO.

In response to your point on Mayweather, I don't think his defence relies solely on quickness and speed at all. I strongly disagree with that notion. Are refelxes a big part of it? Absolutely. But, his technical ability, fundementals and startegy clearly, in my book, play a huge part in his success at the top level for over a decade.

I also don't think he is "getting hit more than ever before" at the moment either. He got hit more in the Augustus fight, for example, than he probably has in his last 3 fights.

As for the Whitaker-Oscar fight, well, he really wasn't untouchable at that point. He was clearly on the decline and Oscar was landing on him relatively freuquently. I mean, Oscar has a strong argument for winning that fight. It wasn't a robbery, it could have gone either way.

I would argue Mayweather got hit much less against Oscar than Whitaker did. Which obviously has to do with the fact that Mayweather was in his prime, Oscar wasn't and of course Oscar being in his prime agianst Whitaker and Whitaker being clearly on the slope of decline.

I saw Oscar land next to nothing on Whitaker. But I will rewatch it. So ill get back to you on that one.

My only reason I brought up Mayweather as athletic Dependant, was because he throws lead left hooks and lead right hands, which is generally something you can only do if you have incredible speed. (although the lead right sometimes not so much). These punches are his main arsenal. If anything, the Mosley fight showed his skills. Like I said, one of the best counter right hands! Take away those lead left hooks and lead right hands, what does he have that makes him stand out (offensively)? Whitaker still has plenty, his game plan was never based off speed, rather purely skill and he just happened to have speed! my opinion

keep in mind, Mayweather for sure belongs on this list, My only argument is in comparison to Whitaker.

[SCtrojansbaby]

Bernard Hopkins and Marco Antonio Barrera. Oh and Pernell Whitaker was ALL reflexes and athlicism without that he would of been a slightly better version of Carlos Quintana

[joseph5620]

I love how people say 'natural ability', or 'physical attributes', or whatever. People act like RJJ wasn't doing crazy training since he was a child, or James Toney wasn't studying mad Ezzard Charles tapes and other old timers. Natural ability, Athleticism? Yes. They also had a determination to be the best, to learn the game, and train with a chip on their shoulder.
RJJ wasn't just some freakishly physically gifted man.

I've always had the same thoughts about that.

[Toney Loc]

Bernard Hopkins and Marco Antonio Barrera. Oh and Pernell Whitaker was ALL reflexes and athlicism without that he would of been a slightly better version of Carlos Quintana

Take away Whitaker's speed and reflexes and he still possesses an excellent southpaw jab, superb body punching skillz, and a very high Boxing IQ.

[Toney Loc]

BTW, I pick Roberto Duran and Marco Antonio Barrera. Neither were the biggest punchers or the speediest but both can do it all. Box, punch, fight on the inside, go to war, all with excellent skills.

[Capaedia]

Take away Whitaker's speed and reflexes and he still possesses an excellent southpaw jab, superb body punching skillz, and a very high Boxing IQ.

Great workrate, stamina, punch resistance, timing...

[Toney Loc]

Great workrate, stamina, punch resistance, timing...

Word. Carlos Quintana my ass.