Marciano: alternate legacy

[JAB5239]

I am sorry but you are way out of the mark here. I am going to give some stats to you which you might like to take a look in, when I get the time to form them.

Meanwhile form a top 10 fighters who Frazier beat and Tyson beat. And kick out the top 4. And see who are more prone to dropping down out of the top 20. If Frazier had lost to Ali 3-0 , can you place him in the top 10?

Even if Rocky takes a lose, his performance against the top ranked contenders (an imporatant barometer to me, since generally the top 2 ranked guys are the ones throughout eras who are pretty good), is better than most heavyweights. In case someone's tail starts to wiggle and they ask me to post or prove it don't worry I will do this soon.

I don't believe Im wrong because this is a matter of opinion my friend. And yes, Frazier probably falls from the top 20 also, especially considering I rank him 11th or 12th.

[Greatest1942]

I don't believe Im wrong because this is a matter of opinion my friend. And yes, Frazier probably falls from the top 20 also, especially considering I rank him 11th or 12th.

Yea, thats true these are all opinions...

Frazier out of top 10, Rock out of top 10...did you try kicking out the top 4 guys in Foreman's resume ? or Liston's? can you rate them in the top 10 with those four names excluded...

Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

Tyson top 10:-

1. Holmes
2. Spinks
3. Ruddock 2x
4. Bruno 2x
5. Tucker
6. Golota
7. Thomas
8. Botha
9. Biggs
10. Berbick

Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett

Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea
6. Burns
7. Moran
8. Ketchel
9. Denver Ed Martin
10. Tom Cowler

If I eliminate the top 4 in each of the case, what will they be left with?

Nothing in case of Foreman or Liston, except Foreman made that massive comeback which was a big plus, but its still not top 15 IMO. Tyson's is not top 30 in that case. Jeffries is in pretty bad shape too.I will spare dissecting him.

Johnsons best victim is McVea and then the 155lb Burns, and a middle weight Ketchel forms the rest...is this really a top 20? If we count his resume from 5 onwards I am saying it is top 25 at best top 20.

Except Ali and Louis , must will suffer badly...some will fall out of top 10 and some out of top 20...Rock is not special IMO.

[JAB5239]

Yea, thats true these are all opinions...

Frazier out of top 10, Rock out of top 10...did you try kicking out the top 4 guys in Foreman's resume ? or Liston's? can you rate them in the top 10 with those four names excluded...

Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

Tyson top 10:-

1. Holmes
2. Spinks
3. Ruddock 2x
4. Bruno 2x
5. Tucker
6. Golota
7. Thomas
8. Botha
9. Biggs
10. Berbick

Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett

Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea
6. Burns
7. Moran
8. Ketchel
9. Denver Ed Martin
10. Tom Cowler

If I eliminate the top 4 in each of the case, what will they be left with?

Nothing in case of Foreman or Liston, except Foreman made that massive comeback which was a big plus, but its still not top 15 IMO. Tyson's is not top 30 in that case. Jeffries is in pretty bad shape too.I will spare dissecting him.

Johnsons best victim is McVea and then the 155lb Burns, and a middle weight Ketchel forms the rest...is this really a top 20? If we count his resume from 5 onwards I am saying it is top 25 at best top 20.

Except Ali and Louis , must will suffer badly...some will fall out of top 10 and some out of top 20...Rock is not special IMO.

Resume is the key factor in any all time list, IN MY OPINION. But there are certainly other things to consider. As I have already said though this is just an exercise, NOT what I consider any fighters personal ranking to be. With all due respect G, it seems you and a couple others have taken this thread totally out of context.

[GJC]

"

However you can always have DeJohn like guys shead of Elmer ray or Baksi

Personally I find it difficult to understand the small minority who rate Ali over Baksi

Baksi nearly killed Wood**** BTW

[McGoorty]

Yea, thats true these are all opinions...

Frazier out of top 10, Rock out of top 10...did you try kicking out the top 4 guys in Foreman's resume ? or Liston's? can you rate them in the top 10 with those four names excluded...

Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

Tyson top 10:-

1. Holmes
2. Spinks
3. Ruddock 2x
4. Bruno 2x
5. Tucker
6. Golota
7. Thomas
8. Botha
9. Biggs
10. Berbick

Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett

Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea
6. Burns
7. Moran
8. Ketchel
9. Denver Ed Martin
10. Tom Cowler

If I eliminate the top 4 in each of the case, what will they be left with?

Nothing in case of Foreman or Liston, except Foreman made that massive comeback which was a big plus, but its still not top 15 IMO. Tyson's is not top 30 in that case. Jeffries is in pretty bad shape too.I will spare dissecting him.

Johnsons best victim is McVea and then the 155lb Burns, and a middle weight Ketchel forms the rest...is this really a top 20? If we count his resume from 5 onwards I am saying it is top 25 at best top 20.

Except Ali and Louis , must will suffer badly...some will fall out of top 10 and some out of top 20...Rock is not special IMO.

On those lists there, only Johnson and Jeffries would be top 15, with 4 names out. Actually if you take just 2 off the others they look very slim indeed, especially Tyson's. Looking at that, Jeffries is ridiculously underated. Without Frazier and Norton on there Foreman would not rate at all, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

[McGoorty]

Lol

Personally I find it difficult to understand the small minority who rate Ali over Baksi

Baksi nearly killed Wood**** BTW

JOE THE GREAT....................................

[JAB5239]

On the contrary... I didn't take it seriously at all.

Well that's just peachy, you've set my mind at ease.

[JAB5239]

JAB,
If you ever wrote that here before, I must have missed it. But I'm real surprised you feel that way about Tunney.

I have no problem with you seeing it that way, it just kinda (shocked is too strong a word, but I can't think of anything similar)....."surprises" me.

Your Gene Tunney is my Sam Langford I guess!

It's funny how the great majority of us have a somewhat deep knowledge about fighters from the past, yet we can still see things different in almost any fighter. I for one think that's what makes it all the more fun here.

One more thing just to be a little cute...I find that it's best not to say anything bad about another historians choice of who rates where. It's akin to keeping quiet when you see one of your buddy's wives or girlfriend who is, well, let's just say "not pretty". It's best just to aknowledge her & change the subject.

As a fighter I respect Tunney's abilities, his light heavyweight status and p4p standing by most. At heavyweight though his accomplishments are just to thin for me to rank in the top 15 let alone top 10. He didn't clean out the division and his best wins were over a guy who hadn't fought in 3 years. Im not putting him down, there were just plenty of other fighters who fought and beat better fighters at heavyweight.

Langford doesn't make my top 10 either but I do think he has a better resume p4p and at heavyweight. A major difference in my opinion is Langford would fight anyone if granted the opportunity. Had he been allowed to fight more white heavyweights his resume in all likelihood would be even better. Tunney chose not not to fight black fighters. Had he his resume would also likely be better. But he made a choice whereas Langford was forced. Maybe it's just me, but these things weigh in on how I rank a fighter.

[joseph5620]

On those lists there, only Johnson and Jeffries would be top 15, with 4 names out. Actually if you take just 2 off the others they look very slim indeed, especially Tyson's. Looking at that, Jeffries is ridiculously underated. Without Frazier and Norton on there Foreman would not rate at all, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

So nobody would talk about the oldest fighter to ever win a heavyweight championship? Just dismiss Foreman's comeback? If you feel that way about Foreman, why would you talk about Jeffries if his top 4 wins were left out? That would leave him with about 15 pro fights on record. How is he ridiculously underrated in this situation?

[Greatest1942]

Resume is the key factor in any all time list, IN MY OPINION. But there are certainly other things to consider. As I have already said though this is just an exercise, NOT what I consider any fighters personal ranking to be. With all due respect G, it seems you and a couple others have taken this thread totally out of context.

True, Marciano still seems to bring a lot of unneccessary exercise. .


But honestly though, with all due respect too, once you make a thread like this, which is a strong exercise, you shouldn't be complaining if it goes out of context.

But to be brutally honest with you, I think Marciano gets a bad shake from you...though in all fairness I probably give bad shakes to other deserving fighters too.