Marciano: alternate legacy

[Rockin']

If Marciano had been black he would not be ranked as high as he is with his short reign on top and would not be given such adjulation as he has been given in history..............Rockin'

[joseph5620]

"Others"
Anyone except yourself, includes me..now no more homework lessons.

I did not say that Louis will beat almost every heavies in history..So answer the guy who did.

In the previous fight Savold beat by KO Bruce Wood**** to hold the BBC Heavyweight Title, in other words an alphabet belt in todays term.

Bivins cracked the top 10 after Louis beat him. So he was far from a spent force "Mr Delusional". Louis also beat Cesar Brion who was a good contender (I hope you heard the name ). The fact that a top 5 contender is beating other top 10 contenders and is a big victory for the guy ...but in your small world perhaps beating the #2 contender does not count for anything. During this period in an exhibition he KO'd Valentino who was #8 ranked in 1949. He was old and shot, not the great champ he was , but he was still a good heavyweight, otherwise he would not have beaten the guys he did.

If you're going to give me a "homework lesson" at least speak correctly. Bruce Wood**** BBC title. Wow! . Am I supposed to be impressed by that? And you're right. Louis was old and shot and that's all that needs to be said. And rankings are not always indicative of fighters ability. You should know better than that Mr IQ.

[JAB5239]

Exactly... I'd like to think the OP question is a bit self explanatory.

If we take Liston, Foreman, Frazier, and Norton out of Ali's resume does it take him down a notch.

Uh.... maybe.

Exactly what fighter can you take away their 4 greatest wins and NOT have them drop in the rankings significantly?

My point was, my opinion, is that Marciano doesn't just drop a notch, he falls completely out of the top 20. And of course you can do this with any fighter, but Rocky creates debate on where he should be placed more than any other fighter. After this thread fizzles I plan on creating another for Larry Holmes, than Dempsey, than Tyson and others I think may spark debate. The only 3 I don't see falling out of the top 10 are Louis, Ali and Johnson, and Im sure that will cause some debate in itself. We all have our reasons why we rank fighters where we do. Take a few of those reasons away and things are viewed differently. It doesn't change history or the greatness of any fighter, it's just a fun little exercise. Some of you guys take this shit way to seriously.

[JAB5239]

If Marciano had been black he would not be ranked as high as he is with his short reign on top and would not be given such adjulation as he has been given in history..............Rockin'

I don't think it's the color of his skin that makes him so revered (though that is certainly a factor) but him being the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. People hold the 0 in such high regard and look at it like just because he was never beaten than he couldn't be beaten. I almost started a thread about where the Rock would rank had the doctor or ref stopped the second Charles fight when his nose was split. It wouldn't change his heart, his power, skills, stamina, determination.....whatever. But he certainly wouldn't rank as high today with a loss on his record.

[Rockin']

I don't think it's the color of his skin that makes him so revered (though that is certainly a factor) but him being the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. People hold the 0 in such high regard and look at it like just because he was never beaten than he couldn't be beaten. I almost started a thread about where the Rock would rank had the doctor or ref stopped the second Charles fight when his nose was split. It wouldn't change his heart, his power, skills, stamina, determination.....whatever. But he certainly wouldn't rank as high today with a loss on his record.

On a social timescale Marciano falls just before the dismantelment of segregation. Retire undefeated and you will be revered and loved for ages. I believe his greatness has alot to do with the publicity that he recieved in his time, it makes all fighters histories to speak off. Marcianos was just polished from the time he hit. He beat some big names but most of them were on the last leg of their careers.

Suppose Tyson had just up and said I retire after his demolition of Carl "the Truth"Williams in one round. In just 3 years and 4 months Tyson had literally cleaned out the division. Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno and finally Williams. 10 defenses in 38 months, Tyson completely dominated. A much bigger feet than Rocky Marciano ever accomplished.............Rockin'

[JAB5239]

On a social timescale Marciano falls just before the dismantelment of segregation. Retire undefeated and you will be revered and loved for ages. I believe his greatness has alot to do with the publicity that he recieved in his time, it makes all fighters histories to speak off. Marcianos was just polished from the time he hit. He beat some big names but most of them were on the last leg of their careers.

Suppose Tyson had just up and said I retire after his demolition of Carl "the Truth"Williams in one round. In just 3 years and 4 months Tyson had literally cleaned out the division. Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno and finally Williams. 10 defenses in 38 months, Tyson completely dominated. A much bigger feet than Rocky Marciano ever accomplished.............Rockin'

I agree and believe he would have been thought of by the masses as the greatest heavyweight ever. It wouldn't have been true in my opinion, but that zero has a way of making people think differently and forget about circumstances and competition.

Since we're off topic, where and why do you rate Gene Tunney at heavyweight? You mentioned him earlier in this thread and Im still curious. To me he was a great, great fighter and would match up favorably with many past greats. But his resume at heavy simply doesn't get him in the top 20 in my opinion.

[Greatest1942]

If you're going to give me a "homework lesson" at least speak correctly. Bruce Wood**** BBC title. Wow! . Am I supposed to be impressed by that? And you're right. Louis was old and shot and that's all that needs to be said. And rankings are not always indicative of fighters ability. You should know better than that Mr IQ.

Genius it was just to point out that Savold was coming out of a big win.

Just have a look at the guy Bivins beat after Louis beat him. Instead of fooling around.

So ring rankings don't matter, but Mr Joseph's view of fighters in 2011 is a more objective and accurate representation of their abilities? No wonder I call you Mr Low IQ.

[Greatest1942]

My point was, my opinion, is that Marciano doesn't just drop a notch, he falls completely out of the top 20. And of course you can do this with any fighter, but Rocky creates debate on where he should be placed more than any other fighter. After this thread fizzles I plan on creating another for Larry Holmes, than Dempsey, than Tyson and others I think may spark debate. The only 3 I don't see falling out of the top 10 are Louis, Ali and Johnson, and Im sure that will cause some debate in itself. We all have our reasons why we rank fighters where we do. Take a few of those reasons away and things are viewed differently. It doesn't change history or the greatness of any fighter, it's just a fun little exercise. Some of you guys take this shit way to seriously.

I am sorry but you are way out of the mark here. I am going to give some stats to you which you might like to take a look in, when I get the time to form them.

Meanwhile form a top 10 fighters who Frazier beat and Tyson beat. And kick out the top 4. And see who are more prone to dropping down out of the top 20. If Frazier had lost to Ali 3-0 , can you place him in the top 10?

Even if Rocky takes a lose, his performance against the top ranked contenders (an imporatant barometer to me, since generally the top 2 ranked guys are the ones throughout eras who are pretty good), is better than most heavyweights. In case someone's tail starts to wiggle and they ask me to post or prove it don't worry I will do this soon.

[Greatest1942]

If Marciano had been black he would not be ranked as high as he is with his short reign on top and would not be given such adjulation as he has been given in history..............Rockin'

"Colour"

being neither black or white ( I am an Asian) I can say that Marciano also gets a lot of flak because he was white...people like you seem to not look at the resume and say this.

This kind of sweeping race statements don't mean a thing, from you or me.

[joseph5620]

Genius it was just to point out that Savold was coming out of a big win.
Just have a look at the guy Bivins beat after Louis beat him. Instead of fooling around.

So ring rankings don't matter, but Mr Joseph's view of fighters in 2011 is a more objective and accurate representation of their abilities? No wonder I call you Mr Low IQ.

Yes. Savold's huge win over that killer Bruce Wood**** for the BBC title. How could I possibly overlook that? LOL!



Before you start talking about a "low IQ" you better think about how ****** you look when you make these contradicting statements in the same day. Comical.

You really have some problem with comprehension.My top 10 heavy's list is there in the heavyweights list thread. Check out where I have Liston. Charles is in top 20. Its because he was inconsistent at heavyweight and H2H falls short of Liston. But that does not deter from the fact that Charles had almost as good a resume and a longer title reign.

I am still saying Charles has the deeper resume, their top wins cancel each other out but the bottom half of Charles's list is far superior to Liston's.But Liston as a heavyweight still ranks over Charles because when you rank them you use (OR I use ) 75% resume and 25% H2H...in that resume part Liston is close enough but in the H2H part Charles isn't. So Liston ranks higher. Doesn't however completely overshadow the fact that Charles has the deeper resume though in all fairness Liston is close enough.