Marciano: alternate legacy

[joseph5620]

I wouldn't mention Liston on the same line as ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ezzard Charles, so you are saying--------------- Liston beat a bunch of ATG's...... really ??,.... he's as good as --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ezzard Charles ?. ---- What ?

Maybe if you correctly comprehended what I posted you wouldn't have to ask that question. I never said Liston beat a bunch of all time greats. So spare me your typical hyperbolic responses. And yes, Liston was a better heavyweight than Charles. Whether you "mention him in the same line" or not. That's exactly what I'm saying. Does that answer your question?

[McGoorty]

Liston cleaned out the division in devastating fashion while Chatles was somewhat inconsistent at heavyweight. Liston is a top 10 heavy in my opinion, Ezzard isn't.

I agree that he did all that, but I asked how he'd go if he was Marciano or Tommy Burns size, same thing for the Klits, it's one thing to bully guys because compared to them he's a water Buffalo..... BTW water Buffalos can kill any man to ever live in a second flat, now shrink that animal down to a Tasmanian Devil, and you have a very small aggressive critter instead of a man mountain like Sonny.

[McGoorty]

The difference with Marciano is that if you take his 4 biggest fights away he is left with practically nobody of note.

All the same he beat the entire division, or the cream at least, Valdez though very big, wouldn't have lasted many rounds. You know Jab, I think Marciano is a NIGHTMARE for any gloved boxer to ever live, If Darcy was around in the 50's and I managed Les, I would not let Darcy fight Rocky under any circumstances, I'd tell Les, "yes you are better in most departments than him, but he's simply too big and powerful", Darcy would probably win any round he survived, but even with that chin, surely it would end in disaster. Rocky did everything ever asked of him. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Rocky was born an Australian he may have become one of the greatest forwards in either Rugby League Or Rugby Union if he was born a kiwi,... maybe an ice-hockey legend if born a canuck.... he was a natural born athlete who would have made a name for himself in nearly any endeavor.

[McGoorty]

Maybe if you correctly comprehended what I posted you wouldn't have to ask that question. I never said Liston beat a bunch of all time greats. So spare me your typical hyperbolic responses. And yes, Liston was a better heavyweight than Charles. Whether you "mention him in the same line" or not. That's exactly what I'm saying. Does that answer your question?

Yes, actually that was much better explained. P4P there is no WAY you can compare them, Charles a small HW and Liston anything but small, that size of Liston cannot be sneered at. I think Floyd Patterson would have beat Liston if they weighed the same... just my opinion though...... but why put the word hyperbolic in ???..... Maybe you should read the variety of work that I've done here, damn, without me I doubt if more than two people on this forum would have ever heard of Les Darcy..... I HAD to correct that.

[joseph5620]

Yes, actually that was much better explained. P4P there is no WAY you can compare them, Charles a small HW and Liston anything but small, that size of Liston cannot be sneered at. I think Floyd Patterson would have beat Liston if they weighed the same... just my opinion though...... but why put the word hyperbolic in ???..... Maybe you should read the variety of work that I've done here, damn, without me I doubt if more than two people on this forum would have ever heard of Les Darcy..... I HAD to correct that.

This is not a p4p discussion. Liston was a better heavyweight than Charles. Period. And the size argument is ridiculous. If size was the main factor why didn't Primo Carnera and Jess Willard have the same talent as Liston? Why didn't Wepner or Williams beat Liston? There were heavyweights taller and bigger than Liston before him. That excuse doesn't cut it. Don't even try to convince me Liston was only winning because of his "size".


And I said "Hyperbolic" because you flat out misquoted my post. I would appreciate if you question me about what I actually post and not your false interpretation of it.

[JAB5239]

I agree that he did all that, but I asked how he'd go if he was Marciano or Tommy Burns size, same thing for the Klits, it's one thing to bully guys because compared to them he's a water Buffalo.

He wasn't a water buffalo compared to Williams, Valdes and Wepner and destroyed them with minimal effort. I've heard many say Williams is one of the greatest heavyweights to never win the title. Pretty high accolades.

I personally feel Liston is much better than given credit for.

[McGoorty]

He wasn't a water buffalo compared to Williams, Valdes and Wepner and destroyed them with minimal effort. I've heard many say Williams is one of the greatest heavyweights to never win the title. Pretty high accolades.

I personally feel Liston is much better than given credit for.

No,... those guys were as biggish as Sonny,... Sonny was simply better than those guys,.. in other words he was the best of the giants,..... Patterson was small and had no hope. For a smaller man to beat a big man,.. that small man must have twice the ability just to compete....... that's for Joseph too.

[McGoorty]

No,... those guys were as biggish as Sonny,... Sonny was simply better than those guys,.. in other words he was the best of the giants,..... Patterson was small and had no hope. For a smaller man to beat a big man,.. that small man must have twice the ability just to compete....... that's for Joseph too.

And Pattersons chin could have been better.

[McGoorty]

This is not a p4p discussion. Liston was a better heavyweight than Charles. Period. And the size argument is ridiculous. If size was the main factor why didn't Primo Carnera and Jess Willard have the same talent as Liston? Why didn't Wepner or Williams beat Liston? There were heavyweights taller and bigger than Liston before him. That excuse doesn't cut it. Don't even try to convince me Liston was only winning because of his "size".


And I said "Hyperbolic" because you flat out misquoted my post. I would appreciate if you question me about what I actually post and not your false interpretation of it.

They just didn't have anything on Sonny that's why,... hey I'm not saying Liston wasn't a terrifying and powerful man who had all the fundamentals.... Carnera had virtually no idea... Willard was technically sound but he was a teddy bear compared to Liston,... he just wasn't an aggressive guy whereas we know all about Liston's rage. Having said that, Ezzard Charles isn't going out in the 1st round like Floyd, he's too smart but eventually I think Liston gets him. But for out and out skills it's Ezzard all the way,... Just the fact that this guy won the HW title sets him among the elite.

[Greatest1942]

An old, fat and fighting only because he got screwed by the irs Joe Louis was a good win? Louis was nothing when Marciano beat him except for a recognizable name who was cleared to fight in that mis-match.

And you are mistaken about Charles, while I agree that he was a good fighter at the time he won the first bout against Walcott and lost the next two meetings, the last by ko. Charles was a great fighter but his Heavyweight resume pales in comparison to his lightheavy resume. I respect Charles, Bill Miller always praised Charles for his skill as do I. But he was better still at Light-Heavy.

Don ****ell was a blown up light heavy who was at the end of his rope when he faced Marciano. ****ell was nothing close to what he was as a Light-Heavy when in with the Heavyweights. ****ell didn't start fighting as a heavyweight until he was 33 years old. ****ell was Ko'd by Randy Turpin for the British Light-Heavy title and 2 years later was ko'd in his last 3 bouts by our man Rocky and lost by Ko against Nino Valdez and a guy named Kitione Lave and he was done.

The Louis fight was a farce, ****ell who proved better as a Light-Heavy loses to Marciano at the tail end of his career. Ezzard Charles, ok I'll give you that he was a good heavyweight. Jersey Joe was at the end of his career. Archie Moorer was a nice win but Floyd Patterson was able to stop Moore just a little over a year after Rocky did.
Doesn't sound like it was the Mongoose of old that was in there with Rocky. ..............Rockin'

Charles lost the last fight by decison, not by KO. You are wrong there. And he by most accounts won that one. So its probably 3-1 in favour of Charles, which coming against a top 25 Heavyweight is not bad. Ali is probably 2-1 against Norton, Louis 1-1 against Schemelling. Surely you as a fighter will appreciate that when you fight the best you will sometimes lose to the best. Thats why boxing of yesteryears was exciting.

"Louis"

Louis was not the Louis of old. everyone knows that. But he did have some great wins in his bag when he fought Marciano. He had beaten Bivins, Savold.

Take it this way if you see a fighter today beating the the top 5 ranked contenders , don't you think it will be great wins. Louis beat the top contenders, that shows he was still good enough as a contender. It was a good win.

Ezzard was better at light heavy but he was also good at Heavyweight. The names that he beat shows it. Tunney was probably better at light heavy, than at heavy but it doesn't make him a bad heavyweight or even an average one.

Moore went on to beat the top ranking contenders of his era after Marciano beat him. He was still better than any one at light heavy weight.

He was the #2 in the ring ratings for heavy weight in 1956.He continued to be the light heavy champ beating good completion's at heavy and light heavy, looks like he was not so faded as you would like to portray as well. Moore said the Floyd loss was teh worst performance of his life. It also looks from proof that he was simply not at his best.

The way you are dissecting Rock's career I can dissect Ali's too or even Louis's.

take Ali's beats an over the hill Liston who quits. Beats a Williams who is shot,loses to Frazier, beats a Foreman who is embarrassingly erratic, beats a Frazier who is over the hill clearly, loses to Norton never beats him clearly and
is beaten by Leon Spinks whose career is atrocious to speak off.

You have a real fixation on light heavys turned heavy's right? ****ell was the #2 ranked contender when he met Marciano. One year earlier he had beaten LaStraza and Harry mathews both top 10 ranked heavyweights. He was the Commonwealth (British Empire) heavyweight title, an alphabet title in todays term. He doesn't seem as bad as you are trying to make him look. Not worse than many title defenses of even Ali or Louis or Dempsey. And by all accounts looking at his rankings and performance, he seems to be a good win.



You can diss everyones career if you have to...and at the moment you are simply clinging on straws to diss Rocky's.