Marciano: alternate legacy

[McGoorty]

So nobody would talk about the oldest fighter to ever win a heavyweight championship? Just dismiss Foreman's comeback? If you feel that way about Foreman, why would you talk about Jeffries if his top 4 wins were left out? That would leave him with about 15 pro fights on record. How is he ridiculously underrated in this situation?

Well Joseph, I always liked George, I loved him against Frazier and Norton, I was never real big on Frazier. When I looked at those lists that 1942 put up, I saw some very impressive names on Jeff's list,.. mate Gus Ruhlin was on the bottom part of that list, Ruhlin was a hell of a fighter, his name may not ring a bell to you, after all he never won the title and it was along time ago, they fought under much tougher conditions then too. I was expecting Johnson to be wiped out with 4 going off there, but his resume looks the most solid to me, --------------------------Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea Great fighter
6. Burns Great fighter
7. Moran A top contender,, good fighter
8. Ketchel Yeah small but a Great Champion
9. Denver Ed Martin Good Fighter
10. Tom Cowler Never ****ing heard of this guy I admit----------- Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer Like Ketchell just too small
4. Ron Lyle This guy fought a bit like Ruhlin,, rough and always dangerous
5. George Chuvalo Not one of the greats,.. Taker of massive punishment.. Ruhlin again maybe.. but Gus had a bit more finesse
6. Alex Stewart Don't know him from a bar of soap, surely Quawi is twice as good as this bloke
7. Gregorio Peralta Can't say anything, not a name I know
8. Adilson Rodrigues ?????????????????????
9. Dwight Qawi Cruiserweight but at least top 5 on this list, very good fighter
10. Boone Kirkman ??????????????????? -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett....................... Solid all the way to Munroe at least..... Jeffries was rated by many as the greatest HW,,,, back to the pre-Louis era..... most then have the bomber as ATG HW.......... Foremans comeback doubles his prestige, a great achievement, but they are zack compared to the 70's victims....... That was just the "RING" lists anyway Joseph, I was simply giving my opinion OF THE LIST THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED............ Do you agree that this list actually represents Foremans ten best wins in order ??.. well Quawi should be at least 4 spots higher, What do you reckon ?... mate, I refuse to acknowledge most magazine lists..... you should see "Fist" magazines PATHETIC attempt at the Top 25 Aussies of all time........ Grantlee Kieza, qualified to speak on behalf of a nation ?... No F***in way... I gave up caring after I read that,,...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Relax a bit Jo, no need for getting too worked up, it wasn't a list that 1942 made up..... have a good day.

[StarshipTrooper]

Well Joseph, I always liked George, I loved him against Frazier and Norton, I was never real big on Frazier. When I looked at those lists that 1942 put up, I saw some very impressive names on Jeff's list,.. mate Gus Ruhlin was on the bottom part of that list, Ruhlin was a hell of a fighter, his name may not ring a bell to you, after all he never won the title and it was along time ago, they fought under much tougher conditions then too. I was expecting Johnson to be wiped out with 4 going off there, but his resume looks the most solid to me, --------------------------Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea Great fighter
6. Burns Great fighter
7. Moran A top contender,, good fighter
8. Ketchel Yeah small but a Great Champion
9. Denver Ed Martin Good Fighter
10. Tom Cowler Never ****ing heard of this guy I admit----------- Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer Like Ketchell just too small
4. Ron Lyle This guy fought a bit like Ruhlin,, rough and always dangerous
5. George Chuvalo Not one of the greats,.. Taker of massive punishment.. Ruhlin again maybe.. but Gus had a bit more finesse
6. Alex Stewart Don't know him from a bar of soap, surely Quawi is twice as good as this bloke
7. Gregorio Peralta Can't say anything, not a name I know
8. Adilson Rodrigues ?????????????????????
9. Dwight Qawi Cruiserweight but at least top 5 on this list, very good fighter
10. Boone Kirkman ??????????????????? -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett....................... Solid all the way to Munroe at least..... Jeffries was rated by many as the greatest HW,,,, back to the pre-Louis era..... most then have the bomber as ATG HW.......... Foremans comeback doubles his prestige, a great achievement, but they are zack compared to the 70's victims....... That was just the "RING" lists anyway Joseph, I was simply giving my opinion OF THE LIST THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED............ Do you agree that this list actually represents Foremans ten best wins in order ??.. well Quawi should be at least 4 spots higher, What do you reckon ?... mate, I refuse to acknowledge most magazine lists..... you should see "Fist" magazines PATHETIC attempt at the Top 25 Aussies of all time........ Grantlee Kieza, qualified to speak on behalf of a nation ?... No F***in way... I gave up caring after I read that,,...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Relax a bit Jo, no need for getting too worked up, it wasn't a list that 1942 made up..... have a good day.

Bear in mind now that while Ketchel and Burns where great fighters they were great MIDDLEWEIGHTS. Heavys don't get credit for beating up Middles. How much credit do you think Larry Holmes would have gotten if he had given Marvin Hagler a title shot? After all, Hagler was a great FIGHTER wasn't he? He was still a Middleweight and people would be crucifying Holmes for pounding the crap out of Hagler if such a matchup had gone down.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

And BTW, for some other posters in this thread, resumes aren't just about "names": The career stage that that name is at determines whether the name means anything or not. Johnson does NOT get any credit for smacking around a washed-up Jeffries by anybody that has a working brain cell. Or are we counting Ali as anything other than a meaningless sparring session for Holmes? Ali at that career stage was no better than a tomato can and Holmes gets as much credit for it as he would for beating up any no-name tomato can culled from the local tough-guy circuit.....that is to say he gets NO credit for it. Just so, Johnson shouldn't be getting any credit for Jeffries either.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Your Gene Tunney is my Sam Langford I guess!

The problem with Tunney isn't that he wasn't a great fighter (obviously he WAS and any one claiming differently needs his head checked out) but that he had only around 6 fights at Heavyweight out of a 60+ fight career. I don't know how anybody can be ranked in a division where they had that few fights. It's why we don't rank Roy Jones as a Heavy even though he, like Tunney, won a title there. The body of work in that division is simply too small to truly gauge how good was at that particular weight.

Poet

[JAB5239]

True, Marciano still seems to bring a lot of unneccessary exercise. .

But honestly though, with all due respect too, once you make a thread like this, which is a strong exercise, you shouldn't be complaining if it goes out of context.

This is a fair point.

But to be brutally honest with you, I think Marciano gets a bad shake from you...though in all fairness I probably give bad shakes to other deserving fighters too.

How so G? I rank him 10th all time, he's my 3rd favorite fighter and I don't think there was ever a heavyweight with more sheer determination. I don't see how I give him a bad shake. Im not trying to be unfair, just objective.

[Greatest1942]

And BTW, for some other posters in this thread, resumes aren't just about "names": The career stage that that name is at determines whether the name means anything or not. Johnson does NOT get any credit for smacking around a washed-up Jeffries by anybody that has a working brain cell. Or are we counting Ali as anything other than a meaningless sparring session for Holmes? Ali at that career stage was no better than a tomato can and Holmes gets as much credit for it as he would for beating up any no-name tomato can culled from the local tough-guy circuit.....that is to say he gets NO credit for it. Just so, Johnson shouldn't be getting any credit for Jeffries either.

Poet

POet I don't know if this is for me or not...that was just a list, I made trying to give each boxers as many names as I could...In all fairness, even then most guys will likely have still not enough to take the ommision of 4 fighters.

I give Marciano credit for beating up Charles, not because what I read about him or his resume (or names in the resume), but because on video I think he tested Marciano as much as anyone or better than most.

I don't give Charles too much credit for beating Louis, since Louis beat a lot of good heavies after Charles beat him, (which I hope you agree), I am more interested in giving Louis the status of a good contender...surely he was good enough to be #9 in ones resume (this is where I put him in Charles)...

I agree about Ketchel and Burns...I think too much credit is given for ****ing those guys, I doubt even Hagler (a P4P great chin), will survive any good heavyweight, forget ATGS.

I hope you agree.

[Greatest1942]

How so G? I rank him 10th all time, he's my 3rd favorite fighter and I don't think there was ever a heavyweight with more sheer determination. I don't see how I give him a bad shake. Im not trying to be unfair, just objective.

I do think the Rock gets overly criticised for being undefeated or for being white. I can't simply think it that way...Surely his colour did not help him get 49-0 as a record or be the champion and defend it 6 times.

He fought the best contenders available and thats all we can ask of anybody ...We have seen boxers trip up (even ATGs) on lesser challenges than what was offered to Rocky. As for him being ranked below if was 48-1 , I doubt many guys will do that. Again but this is hypothesis and you can't conjecture what if? Because its a dubious question...point is what happened. Because if he lost to LaStraza might be the Rock would have fought on till he was 56-1 or something and added Valdes or the Young patterson in his resume...In all fairness even with that loss the Rock's resume and achievements will read well, to the objective mind.

However if I conjectured something wrong about you, its my fault...I misunderstood your posts with Rockin...

By the by Rock is 9-0 (8 KO) against top2 contenders...I post this just for reference and the fact that I said i will...as for me the debate is dead...since I can't argue why you rank Rock #10, its your choice.

Foreman = 4-3 (4 KO)
Liston = 5-2 (4 KO)
Holmes = 6-5 (4 KO).

All against top 2.

[Rockin']

Baksi nearly killed Wood**** BTW

you said wood****........Rockin':boobies:

[RubenSonny]

Well Joseph, I always liked George, I loved him against Frazier and Norton, I was never real big on Frazier. When I looked at those lists that 1942 put up, I saw some very impressive names on Jeff's list,.. mate Gus Ruhlin was on the bottom part of that list, Ruhlin was a hell of a fighter, his name may not ring a bell to you, after all he never won the title and it was along time ago, they fought under much tougher conditions then too. I was expecting Johnson to be wiped out with 4 going off there, but his resume looks the most solid to me, --------------------------Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea Great fighter
6. Burns Great fighter
7. Moran A top contender,, good fighter
8. Ketchel Yeah small but a Great Champion
9. Denver Ed Martin Good Fighter
10. Tom Cowler Never ****ing heard of this guy I admit----------- Foreman's top 10:-
1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer Like Ketchell just too small
4. Ron Lyle This guy fought a bit like Ruhlin,, rough and always dangerous
5. George Chuvalo Not one of the greats,.. Taker of massive punishment.. Ruhlin again maybe.. but Gus had a bit more finesse
6. Alex Stewart Don't know him from a bar of soap, surely Quawi is twice as good as this bloke
7. Gregorio Peralta Can't say anything, not a name I know
8. Adilson Rodrigues ?????????????????????
9. Dwight Qawi Cruiserweight but at least top 5 on this list, very good fighter
10. Boone Kirkman ??????????????????? -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett....................... Solid all the way to Munroe at least..... Jeffries was rated by many as the greatest HW,,,, back to the pre-Louis era..... most then have the bomber as ATG HW.......... Foremans comeback doubles his prestige, a great achievement, but they are zack compared to the 70's victims....... That was just the "RING" lists anyway Joseph, I was simply giving my opinion OF THE LIST THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED............ Do you agree that this list actually represents Foremans ten best wins in order ??.. well Quawi should be at least 4 spots higher, What do you reckon ?... mate, I refuse to acknowledge most magazine lists..... you should see "Fist" magazines PATHETIC attempt at the Top 25 Aussies of all time........ Grantlee Kieza, qualified to speak on behalf of a nation ?... No F***in way... I gave up caring after I read that,,...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Relax a bit Jo, no need for getting too worked up, it wasn't a list that 1942 made up..... have a good day.

Jackson was worse than shot.

[McGoorty]

Bear in mind now that while Ketchel and Burns where great fighters they were great MIDDLEWEIGHTS. Heavys don't get credit for beating up Middles. How much credit do you think Larry Holmes would have gotten if he had given Marvin Hagler a title shot? After all, Hagler was a great FIGHTER wasn't he? He was still a Middleweight and people would be crucifying Holmes for pounding the crap out of Hagler if such a matchup had gone down.

Poet

Sure, but A great MW can beat a poor HW,... especially if he can carry some extra pounds of muscle easily a la a certain MW I know..... but the main question is proved, take the top 4 off and they all go down the list by quite a way. Ditto for 99.95% of all boxers.