History Section: Lets Discuss Joe Calzaghe's Legacy/Achievements?

[crold1]

Hopkins' greatness was back in 2001. Now he's a cheap imitation of his former self who has to be carefully matched to win. Greatness isn't measured by being just good enough to beat guys who are just good enough to beat tomato cans.

Poet

Carefully matched? While I think Dawson might get him next week, I don't see the careful matching in total (I was critical when he didn't fight a genuine Light Heavy fir a couple years). His quality of comp since moving to 175 has been among the best and most consistent in the sport, if sporadic (Jones/Ornelas wasn't the worst dip between title reigns ever). His lone loss was competitive to another HOFer coming in hot. Our definition of tomato cans differs and I don't think Pascal, Wright, Pavlik, Calzaghe, or Tarver fit it.

[New England]

If it was that easy to beat Pavlik or Pascal, other guys wouldn't have to work so hard against them. Rare men take younger, faster guys apart like Hopkins did Pascal. Though flawed, he was rocked bad a couple times in both fights with Pascal and endured and his defense is still impeccable. Hopkins still has greatness in him.

pascal's speed only impresses me to any real degree for four rounds or so

and in the latter half of fights he's literally taking the majority of every round off

in my humble opinion pascal had zero business even beating chad dawson, who was :
a: finally coming on
and b: responsible for being behind anyway because he cant let his damn hands go


i'd probably pick a less than great old fighter in glen johnson to outwork pascal
hell, adrian diacanu gave him a rough go. i thought he lost both fights to hopkins.
in short i don't think it really takes a great fighter to beat jean pascal (especially at 175)

you need a good chin to get past his early stuff and a 12 round pace



at bernard's age even being in the ring is impressive.
he's got the deepest bag of tricks in boxing. but one really shouldn't put a ton of stock into a win over jean pascal in my opinion





unrelated: anybody else think dawson has hopkins number for this one?
i've got a bad feeling that it might be bernard's last fight

[StarshipTrooper]

Carefully matched? While I think Dawson might get him next week, I don't see the careful matching. His quality of comp since moving to 175 has been among the best and most consistent in the sport, if sporadic (Jones/Ornelas wasn't the worst dip between title reigns ever). His lone loss was competitive to another HOFer coming in hot. Our definition of tomato cans differs and I don't think Pascal, Pavlik, Calzaghe, or Tarver fit it.

Carefully matched in order to win. He isn't beating Dawson. Jones was completely washed up so that's hardly a "great win". Wright is as past-it as Hopkins. Tarver was never a great fighter and even HE had slipped to past-prime status just like Hopkins. Ornelas? Who the hell did he ever beat? A washed up club fighter like McKart? Please. Pavlik and Pascal are just good enough to beat the tomato cans that make up their resumes. Neither has ever shown me anything against legitimate top opponents to make me think they're world beaters and anything more than the cookie cutter type of opponents that usually float around the bottom half of the top-10 in an average era. Pascal Vs Dawson was a fluke.

Poet

[crold1]

pascal's speed only impresses me to any real degree for four rounds or so

and in the latter half of fights he's literally taking the majority of every round off

in my humble opinion pascal had zero business even beating chad dawson, who was :
a: finally coming on
and b: responsible for being behind anyway because he cant let his damn hands go


i'd probably pick a less than great old fighter in glen johnson to outwork pascal
hell, adrian diacanu gave him a rough go. i thought he lost both fights to hopkins.
in short i don't think it really takes a great fighter to beat jean pascal (especially at 175)

you need a good chin to get past his early stuff and a 12 round pace



at bernard's age even being in the ring is impressive.
he's got the deepest bag of tricks in boxing. but one really shouldn't put a ton of stock into a win over jean pascal in my opinion





unrelated: anybody else think dawson has hopkins number for this one?
i've got a bad feeling that it might be bernard's last fight

I picked Pascal to beat Dawson because I thought Dawson would be frozen too often by a guy who was quicker than him (and I've seen Pascal in too many brawls to think a miracle stop was coming). I would pick Dawson in a rematch and like him against 'Nard but hedge my bets because one never knows with the old man. A lot depends on how bad Dawson wants it and whether he is mentally strong enough to let his talent take over.

[StarshipTrooper]

unrelated: anybody else think dawson has hopkins number for this one? i've got a bad feeling that it might be bernard's last fight

I figure it goes one of two way: A) Hopkins gets beaten up bad and retires; or B) Hopkins plays the ugly spoiler and gets outworked to a decision loss. Either way Hopkins loses.

Poet

[crold1]

Carefully matched in order to win. He isn't beating Dawson. Jones was completely washed up so that's hardly a "great win". Wright is as past-it as Hopkins. Tarver was never a great fighter and even HE had slipped to past-prime status just like Hopkins. Ornelas? Who the hell did he ever beat? A washed up club fighter like McKart? Please. Pavlik and Pascal are just good enough to beat the tomato cans that make up their resumes. Neither has ever shown me anything against legitimate top opponents to make me think they're world beaters and anything more than the cookie cutter type of opponents that usually float around the bottom half of the top-10 in an average era. Pascal Vs Dawson was a fluke.

Poet

I acknowledge Ornelas/Jones as a dip; just not the worst ever between reigns. I can also acknowledge some past prime cats (175 is full of that right now with youth coming along; Cloud with activity could take the division over). But, even past it, all those dudes can still fight and none were shot. I didn't think Pascal-Dawson was not a fluke; he matched well with Dawson that night for reasons stated above. Pascal is flawed but athletically gifted and has a lot of heart. He's not an easy out. It's why he keeps ending up in exciting brawls. Pavlik was hot coming in and even in losing to the talented Serg made it a tough night until late.

Oh, and Hopkins gives up close to two decades to these dudes. He's a genius who can still go.

[IronDanHamza]

I just cannot see any logcial argument for Joe Calzaghe being an ATG.

His best wins are over a 43 year old fighter, a good but not great fighter and an overhyped fighter who got wasted by a shot to pieces Roy Jones Jr in embarrassing fashion.

And other than that his career consists of pretty much nothing at all. Those 3 mentioned being the only 3 fighters he fought that were ranked in the Top 5 of his division when he fought them in a reliatively weak division anyway.

I just cannot see it.

[New England]

I picked Pascal to beat Dawson because I thought Dawson would be frozen too often by a guy who was quicker than him (and I've seen Pascal in too many brawls to think a miracle stop was coming). I would pick Dawson in a rematch and like him against 'Nard but hedge my bets because one never knows with the old man. A lot depends on how bad Dawson wants it and whether he is mentally strong enough to let his talent take over.

you said it brother. he's a solid fighter when he's letting his hands go

[New England]

I figure it goes one of two way: A) Hopkins gets beaten up bad and retires; or B) Hopkins plays the ugly spoiler and gets outworked to a decision loss. Either way Hopkins loses.

Poet

do you think scenario b would still be his last fight?


obviously if chad really puts punches on him and he cant get out of the way and he gets stopped he's never fighting again, but i'm not sure what he'll do if he loses on the cards

he'll probably think he won if he stays on his feet

[StarshipTrooper]

do you think scenario b would still be his last fight?


obviously if chad really puts punches on him and he cant get out of the way and he gets stopped he's never fighting again, but i'm not sure what he'll do if he loses on the cards

he'll probably think he won if he stays on his feet

No, if the latter happens there will still be people saying he was "robbed" and what a genius he is and how he's better then he ever was ect ect ect. Then he'll line up a fight with someone who's perfectly matched to lose to him like Pavlik and will set himself up for another high profile fight he has no chance of winning. It's what fighters 10 years past their expiration dates do (see Joe Louis).

Poet