Are Today’s Fighters Better Than The Great Fighters Of The Past?

[gatorDelux]

if u want to get started with learning about boxing you should read

"the arc of boxing; the rise and decline of the sweet science"

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=SBleeder;11192111Sprinters are faster nowadays, and sprinting is extremely similar to boxing, so there's your proof.
[/QUOTE]

Jesse Owens was shit. It doesn't matter he was running on a dirt track with no staring block and wore 6lb shoes they know use to keep scuba divers weighted down with today.

This is the thing no one likes to look at at. Records will always be broken, yes. But sports have advanced through technology, not physical evolution. In boxing there is very little to be improved upon. Gloves are different but still weighed the same for each fighter. Mouth pieces have evolved, thats a positive. Other than that there is nothing. Today we have 12 round fights instead of 15. We have day before weigh ins instead of weighing in hours before a fight. Guys fight 3 time a year instead of 6 or 8. Boxing has fallen off in my opinion.

[StarshipTrooper]

Jesse Owens was shit. It doesn't matter he was running on a dirt track with no staring block and wore 6lb shoes they know use to keep scuba divers weighted down with today.

This is the thing no one likes to look at at. Records will always be broken, yes. But sports have advanced through technology, not physical evolution. In boxing there is very little to be improved upon. Gloves are different but still weighed the same for each fighter. Mouth pieces have evolved, thats a positive. Other than that there is nothing. Today we have 12 round fights instead of 15. We have day before weigh ins instead of weighing in hours before a fight. Guys fight 3 time a year instead of 6 or 8. Boxing has fallen off in my opinion.

Got to chuckle but there's someone around here that thinks fighting only 1-3 times a year makes them better fighters :chuckle9:

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Let Ursan Bolt run on a cinder track in those crappy 1920s running shoes and see how close he comes to his best time :chuckle9:

Poet

[Scott9945]

If Sugar Ray Robinson were alive today he wouldn't last a round with Antonio Margarito.

Oh, no doubt. Robinson would be 90 and probably too far past his prime.

[jkaisen41]

Are Today’s Fighters Better Than The Great Fighters Of The Past? Part 4

By Monte D. Cox


One of today's more physically gifted athletes is Fernando Vargas (who has allegedly been caught using illegal performance enhancing drugs). However, he too stands straight up, shows no head movement, and can be countered by a smart, technically proficient puncher, as Ronald "Winky" Wright demonstrated, and Oscar Delahoya aptly exposed in beating him. Felix Trinidad looked like an amateur for most of his fight against Delahoya. He missed badly, and had not a clue as to how to cut off the ring on the dancing Delahoya. David Tua is a heavyweight with one of the most powerful left hooks I have seen. But he does not have the ability to effectively fight on the inside; and appears to lack the commitment to work the body (the bobbing and weaving movement of a Joe Frazier or a Jack Dempsey could teach him a thing or two). Recent heavyweights champions such as Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis are notorious for dropping their left hands after jabbing. Holmes was nearly knocked out by both Earnie Shavers and Renaldo Snipes after making such a mistake. Oliver McCall knocked out Lewis, after Lewis continually dropped his left. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

Some modern boxing analysts have commented that Pernell Whitaker was the greatest lightweight because he was unhittable. But so was Benny Leonard. Benny was a true boxing master with much greater experience than Whitaker. He too rarely lost a round in his prime and bragged, "I never even mussed up my hair." Even a faded Benny Leonard was still a highly intelligent fighter. Former welterweight champion Jimmy McLarnin said of Leonard, (Heller 167), "I had a bad habit of leaning under a right hand, and the very first punch he hit me, I saw a million stars. I made a mistake and you couldn’t make a mistake with him." The great fighters like Leonard had the experience to find the weakness in an opponent’s style and capitalize on it, with devastating efficiency. Ray Arcel, (Anderson 148-149), was asked who was the greatest fighter he ever saw. He replied, (Benny Leonard or Ray Robinson), "I hate to say either one but Leonard’s mental energy surpassed anybody else’s."

Joe Gans would have beaten Whitaker as well. Gans was considered to be nearly impossible to hit with a clean punch and his defense so superb his opponents thought he was reading their mind in his ability to anticipate their every move. Further he was a devastating puncher, something that Whittaker was not. Gans, in fact, hit like Felix Trinidad, although he was only a ligthweight. Gans knocked out fighters that were much bigger than anyone Trinidad has beaten and he had nearly 90 career knockouts. Gans knocked out welterweights for 10 counts and then they had to be carried back to their corner to recover. Remember, those old-timers had to fight almost anyone and regularly ventured up far beyond their "normal" weight. Today's fighters are protected by business interests and the big money pay-off of a pay-per-view extravaganza. Don’t try and convince me that they are "better" because they fight today, as opposed to yesterday, and that Gans wasn’t as good because he fought "along time ago". That has nothing to do with it.

Most boxing fans are only knowledgeable of the fighters of their era (the ones they have seen), and are ignorant of history. If they really knew what those men could do they would fully comprehend that boxing skill does not accumulate like facts in science – that today’s theories are better than yesterday’s. It is not an adding up to of anything – it is a science in the sense that the strategies and tactics of hand-to-hand combat are principles that form the basis of the sport, which are ignored at the fighter’s peril. Boxing like the ancient art of the Samurai is a dying art form. The art of feinting is all but lost, body punching neglected, good defense and countering a rarity. The days of battlefield swordsmanship are gone. So too are the days of the great trainers and the great experienced fighters of old.

In conclusion we can say with clarity that while in some instances, today’s boxers are physically stronger athletes, they often lack the endurance of the old time fighters because they fight fewer rounds, and they lack the experience and skill of the great ring generals of the past. The fighters of today are sometimes artificially enhanced with performance increasing drugs and train for shorter fights. The rugged, “old time” brawler type fighters relied on durability and wearing their opponents down, while the boxing masters of old relied on a fight plan that took into account the fact that they had more rounds to work with than today’s fighters. Roberto Duran, for example, showed in his rubber match with Esteban DeJesus that he learned how to apply pace and strategy in the ring. He tempered his aggression and took apart a man that was considered a superior boxer. The Jan. 30, 1978 Sports Illustrated stated, “Moving fluidly and jabbing, slipping punches and countering rather than swarming over DeJesus, he stalked him, relentlessly wearing him down and coolly destroying him with savage punches to the body. For 11 rounds Duran bested the classic boxer at his own game, robbing him of his speed and his will to fight, and only then did he permit himself the luxury of putting DeJesus away.” Duran that night proved he was an all time great fighter and the old masters would have approved.

Today’s fighters, for the most part, tend to be over-rated while the fighters of legend are ignored, largely because so few know much about them.


References:

Anderson, Dave. 1991. In The Corner. NY. William Morrow and Co.

Callis, Tracy. 1998 July. Rating the All Time Greats, Cyberboxingzone Journal http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...-98.htm#callis.

Goldman Herbert. 1996 March. Boxing Illustrated March 1996. p 29. Reiss quote in "In The Ring and Out: Professional Boxing in New York", 1896-1920", a 30 Page chapter in Sport in America: New Historical Perspectives, edited by Donald Spivey, published by Greenwood Press, Westport, Conn. 1985.

Heller, Peter. 1994. In This Corner 42 World Champions Tell Their Stories,. Expanded edition. Da Capo Press. NY, NY.

Roberts, Randy. 1983. Papa Jack: Jack Johnson and the Era of the White Hopes. Free Press. NY, NY.

Suster, Gerald. 1994. Lightning Strikes: The Lives and Times of Boxing’s Lightweight Heroes. Robson Books. London pg. 192

Willoughby, David. 1970. The Super Athletes. Cranbury, N.J.: A. S. Barnes & Co., Inc.

Great read... and you have to agree... I mean if you look into today's boxing it is astonishing how some boxers win fights just with ONE thing...

For example Berto... Berto has no real boxing technique, has no balance etc. but he still will beat about probably 80% of his weight class... just because he has speed and most boxers are ain't trained good enough to overcome only speed... most boxers don't even learn to defend themselves probably...

Pascal-Hopkins is also an good example... an superior athlete with good speed which is enough to beat most fighters in his division but against Hopkins, somebody who out thinks you he looses even though he is 20 years younger... Hopkins-Trinidad also an good example - this fight was really a clinic - Hopkins know everything that Trinidad did and he hit Trinidad everywhere even when he was taking his head down... he exactly knew and anticipated where his head would be... absolutely...

[JAB5239]

Got to chuckle but there's someone around here that thinks fighting only 1-3 times a year makes them better fighters :chuckle9:

Poet

Yeah, I know. I also love the theory of how fighters held jobs back then and were part time fighters, but today they train all day long with nutritional specialists, fitness experts (if you're conditioned to fight 15 rounds or more wouldn't that make YOU the fitness expert?), dieticians and full time cooks. I of course pointed out how the vast majority of fighters today also hold jobs on the side, but some people would rather believe that everyone lives like Floyd Mayweather on 24/7.

[McGoorty]

Yeah, I know. I also love the theory of how fighters held jobs back then and were part time fighters, but today they train all day long with nutritional specialists, fitness experts (if you're conditioned to fight 15 rounds or more wouldn't that make YOU the fitness expert?), dieticians and full time cooks. I of course pointed out how the vast majority of fighters today also hold jobs on the side, but some people would rather believe that everyone lives like Floyd Mayweather on 24/7.

It's gotten to the point now, where we have Rugby League players, retiring from Rugby League at almost middle age or their mid-20's and thinking that they can now go to a gym, hire a boxing trainer and use their celebrity to embark on a boxing career (Anthony Mundine, John Hopoate), and not only do they have a lot of initial success by knocking a bunch of "Title Holders" and so-called experienced and "Professional" fighters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mundine, although a wanker and the biggest egotist ever to come out of Australia, despite being a complete novice at his mid-20's, gets to get for himself 3 so-called "world titles". Now how would he have gone back in 1910 ???... going up against real fighters with at least 50 fights, and more often than not 150 fights or more. The answer is obvious, he would have to go through the ranks the proper way. Try fighting a real world champion with about a dozen pro fights and the result would be TOTAL. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Hopoate, who was kicked out of Rugby league because of a MOST unrepeatable offence ( he liked to stick his thumb up other players *sses,... unrepeatable ), decided to turn pro HW boxer and he was already past 30, he became the Australian HW champion and I don't think he'd had 10 fights to his credit. WTF, A COMPLETE NOVICE BECOMES Aust. HW Champ, purely because he has a huge punch. Just imagine Hopoate trying to win that title off earlier Aust. HW champs..... Dave Sands, Les Darcy, Sam Langford or Sam McVey, how long do you think Hopoate lasts against those guys ????.... I'll tell, Hoppa doesn't make it through the first minute of the first round against any of them..... so would Ron Richards and Dave Smith as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think about the facts I have stated, How do you think moderns are now in comparison to the Old-Timers ?????...... Man, things are at breaking piont, op it's already too late.

[Canelo Phresh]

no. refer to personal references. my father is stronger than me. and so are many mens fathers in our generation. work ethic, determination, and neccesity have predetermined these facts.

[lightsout_finit]

Every era has truly great fighters, even now there has been a few.
But in general fighters now ain't **** compared to the old timers.

I mean lennox followed by klitchkos!!!!! Thats goin from ****in bad to ****in worse.
And Theres been a fair few recent multi weight champs who would have never achieved that when there wasn't a a million belts per weight and the top guys in each division were actually good fighters......

And the question I always ask is;
If these bums now are such modern marvels with their science and nutrition why they strugglin with 12 rounds???? pfffft!!!
A lot of these guys could NEVER go 15 rounds

AND they didn't use big soft pillow gloves either back then.