Joe lous vs Ali?

[StarshipTrooper]

Louis would have knocked out Ali late.

Imagine the surprise Ali is going to get when he leans back to dodge what turns out to be a feint, and then is hit by the actual punch while off balance?

In fact, Louis watched him fight and laid out a plan to beat him which would later be used, successfully, by Joe Frazier. I love Frazier but he was not quite Louis.

Here's said plan

“The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and **** him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived.”

Just google a section of that to see where I got that from, its also got a very nice examination of how the fight may have went. I can't post links yet

My conclusion, to quote Louis:
"Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him."

Link to the thread:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...highlight=clay

[HamerD]

I think that when some people talk about hypotheticals with Ali they do him a disservice by thinking about the Ali that face Frazier in the FOTC. For me, his prime was around the time he chopped down Liston in that second fight. I really enjoyed reading the article linked above and can see what Louis is saying, but I personally put down Ali for a knockout because I don't think Louis would be able to triumph over someone who has a chin comparable to Marciano but is also more technically competent than Schmeling and has a 4 inch reach advantage (note I'm not talking down Louis on account of his first fight vs Schmeling/ his final fight vs Marciano, just saying what I think Ali possesses).

I'll admit that Louis arguably fights in quite a similar style with Kenny Norton who of course gave Ali great trouble, but we are talking (imo) a non-prime Ali there and also Kenny has 4 inches reach and considerable height on Joe.

[McGoorty]

I've got Ali by decision. Stylistically its a horrible matchup for Joe Louis.

You only have to watch Louis vs Farr, Conn and Walcott to see the trouble he had with movers who were either smaller, older or inferior to prime Ali.

The game to beat prime Ali was pressure, relentless Joe Frazier like aggression. The guys who would give prime Ali problems would be the Fraziers, Marciano's and 'prime' Tysons......and even then, I have my doubts as to whether even 1971 Frazier would beat late 1966/ early 1967 Ali.

Louis was adept at cutting off the ring, but he wasn't really a pressure fighter, more a patient stalker. He'd have his moments sure (hell his hands were damn quick), but I think over 12 or 15 rounds he'd be largely outscored from a distance by Ali's superior reach. Prime Ali was so quick on his feet and hard to hit.

Prime Louis might well beat the Ali of the 70s though. Louis was too precise for rope a dope to be a good strategy. Ali's only hope in the 70s would be to fight an Ali vs Frazier 2 type fight............and if it was staged for 15 rounds, that would be a tough ask to maintain that type of mobility and pace.

I favor Ali but not by much, if it were a trilogy which it rightfully should be I would even go as far as predicting that the bomber could win at least one by KO, I rate Ali's chin greatly but honestly I think that Joe did have awesome KO power and Ali's ability to compound the damage by timing ( the punch you don't see,...) and I reckon that if Louis nails anyboby no matter how big and tough they are, most of his films bear this out as fact. When Louis fought huge Buddy Baer who could bear some real power but not necessarily top class and Buddy was very tough too but Louis obliterated him, in my opinion it is one of the all time greatest displays of pure hitting power and agression I have ever seen, it's awesome. Ali is nothing like Baer in any way and he had a far better chin than Louis but he would still fall, if not straight away but Louis is probably the best finisher of all HW's ever, unlike say Dempsey who'd get a bit wild, Louis was calm and very cold, he didn't think he just did the business re-Schmeling 2 . ,... Ali could certainly without question KO Joe whose chin although decent was not in Ali's class. I see the 67 Ali winning this by a split decision, battered up some on his face and his insides will feel like jelly but his amazing will to win was rare. I believe the old Good big'un good littl'un is mostly true and I think Ali's size and foot speed could help him pile up the rounds. I think Louis will get hurt at some stage and his brilliant brain will save him from the Ali flurries, Joe was a very smart fighter too Muhammad and I think Joe will up the ante the round after and come on strong and try to disembowel Ali. At this point the 74 Ali may try the rope-a-dope and as one poster said, curtains for Ali, but 67 Ali wouldn't, he'd get on his bike for sure poking out his left and get through to the bell, as long as he respects Louis and doesn't do something ****** like trying too many right hand leads which would just make Joe mad and he'd nail Ali but I doubt it would be in Ali's game plan. I don't agree with any Louis Frazier comparisons, I say that Ali's overall opposition was stronger than Louis's but not one of them compares in class on any pound for pound basis to the Bomber, obviously I rate Louis above Frazier. Smokin' Joe is also a legend though thats for sure

[Sugarj]

Always a first time. You saw how shaky Frazier got him in their first fight. Louis is probably one of the best finishers ever. If Ali keeps getting back up, then Louis had the ability to keep putting him back down until a ref or corner stoppage.

I must admit in Ali's entire 62 fight career, the closest he got to being stopped (barring the Holmes debacle) was round 11 of the first Frazier fight in 71. Remember that both fighters had absorbed a great amount of punishment prior to and including that round, Ali had suffered a ridiculous body beating up till that point as he lay repeatedly on the ropes. The question is not whether a better finisher than Frazier could have finished him doesn't really work, Frazier was too tired to, he'd been beat up as well up to that point and Ali pulled every survival trick out of the book that round. I cant see why Louis would be any fresher.

You might be glad to hear that I'd Favour prime Louis over 1971 Ali. To be honest I'd give several champions a good shot over '1971' Ali. But not by stoppage! I don't think Ali would have shipped the same amount of punishment from Louis up till round 11 that Frazier did simply because Louis was not the pressuring dynamo that Frazier was.



Louis showed up to that fight intentionally dehydrated to make the lowest weight possible because he didn't want the fight to be dismissed as a 'big guy beating up on a little guy'

Look at their second fight.


Louis was no fool, entering a fight 'intentionally dehydrated' is suicide for any fighter, despite his protestations afterwards. I have heard that story, but can bet that after the weigh in Louis would have taken on plenty of fluids. The fight was superb, it was just one example of several that demonstrated Louis's problems with movers. Hell, he got the result he wanted.

The rematch came much later when both fighters were faded forces. I've never seen that fight as redemption for Louis.





How many people did Ali fight that threw feints? I don't remember any. Louis threw a lot of them. Feints are a very good reason NOT to try and lean out of the way of punches as Ali often did. I think Louis would force him to stop leaning away from punches and take away a major part of his defense in doing so.


Ali's superior reach and handspeed would make Louis's feints largely irrelevant because he would not need to 'time' them to the same extent as a shorter heavyweight would.



Sometimes Holmes tried to imitate Ali at times, but he was really a different fighter with a few similarities. His own style got him the best results.

Ssshh, don't tell anyone but Ali and Holmes might just be my favorite heavyweights to watch......along with Jersey Joe Walcott! But you'll notice that I've made no comment on the Holmes vs Louis thread. I think Holmes has a tougher time with Louis than Ali.

Do you feel that Holmes beats Louis, as the heavier end of that poll seems to suggest?

[Sugarj]

Sorry folks, I seem to have messed up the quotes on the above post! I'm no techy!

My replies are in lower case. The quotes are in bold.

[Capaedia]

I must admit in Ali's entire 62 fight career, the closest he got to being stopped (barring the Holmes debacle) was round 11 of the first Frazier fight in 71. Remember that both fighters had absorbed a great amount of punishment prior to and including that round, Ali had suffered a ridiculous body beating up till that point as he lay repeatedly on the ropes. The question is not whether a better finisher than Frazier could have finished him doesn't really work, Frazier was too tired to, he'd been beat up as well up to that point and Ali pulled every survival trick out of the book that round. I cant see why Louis would be any fresher.

Cooper came pretty close too. Louis, without seeing the fight, knew exactly how Cooper floored him. Coming off the ropes. I'd say it's a safe bet Louis could get Ali to the ropes and if he does. [Possibly] Game over.

You might be glad to hear that I'd Favour prime Louis over 1971 Ali. To be honest I'd give several champions a good shot over '1971' Ali. But not by stoppage! I don't think Ali would have shipped the same amount of punishment from Louis up till round 11 that Frazier did simply because Louis was not the pressuring dynamo that Frazier was.

Really? I'd favour the Ali of '71 most in a match-up with Louis. His chin was stronger, he fought smarter, he hit harder. Only thing I'd count against him was that he may have tried the rope-a-dope. I think if he tried that with Louis, caretakers would be scraping his insides off of the front row.

But his face would still be pretty!

Louis was no fool, entering a fight 'intentionally dehydrated' is suicide for any fighter, despite his protestations afterwards. I have heard that story, but can bet that after the weigh in Louis would have taken on plenty of fluids. The fight was superb, it was just one example of several that demonstrated Louis's problems with movers. Hell, he got the result he wanted.

The rematch came much later when both fighters were faded forces. I've never seen that fight as redemption for Louis.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the dehydration. Louis tagged Conn real good in the 5th, now ordinarily that would have been the end of Conn's night.

Then you have those awkward moments when Conn would dart in and trade blows with Louis. A healthy Louis would not have tolerated that and sent Conn down for a few but Conn was even able to win some of those trades!

Ali's superior reach and handspeed would make Louis's feints largely irrelevant because he would not need to 'time' them to the same extent as a shorter heavyweight would.

I don't understand. Are you saying that Ali would start punching to stop Louis from following through with the real punch?

Watch an Ali highlight video and you'll see his almost supernatural ability to lean out of the way of a blow. Now that's all well and good when there are no feints coming your way, but I guarantee, at least once he'd lean back from a feint and Louis would move in and catch him with something hard. But few were better at adapting than Ali. Who knows, maybe this would correct Ali and make him even better!

Ssshh, don't tell anyone but Ali and Holmes might just be my favorite heavyweights to watch......along with Jersey Joe Walcott! But you'll notice that I've made no comment on the Holmes vs Louis thread. I think Holmes has a tougher time with Louis than Ali.

Do you feel that Holmes beats Louis, as the heavier end of that poll seems to suggest?

I think Louis would beat Holmes, but without some of the glaring defensive mistakes that Ali would show, I think Louis would beat him by a competitive but unanimous decision.

It's nice to see that someone else loves watching Jersey Joe Walcott too. One of a kind fighter.

EDIT: Don't be fooled, I think Ali was better than Holmes, I just think that Holmes was more fundamentally solid.

That's why Holmes was able to take Tyson 4 rounds at the age of 39. I don't think Ali could've taken Tyson 1 round at the age he fought Holmes.

Hell I think Holmes could've ended their fight whenever he wanted to. Maybe that would've been more merciful. That fight should never have been sanctioned in the first place...

[BG_Knocc_Out]

I can see this fight going either way, Ali winning it 6 times out of 10. I chose Louis though based on Ali's troubles with a good boxer in Norton. But Louis did have trouble with movers, but he eventually catches on.

[Sugarj]

Cooper came pretty close too. Louis, without seeing the fight, knew exactly how Cooper floored him. Coming off the ropes. I'd say it's a safe bet Louis could get Ali to the ropes and if he does. [Possibly] Game over.



Really? I'd favour the Ali of '71 most in a match-up with Louis. His chin was stronger, he fought smarter, he hit harder. Only thing I'd count against him was that he may have tried the rope-a-dope. I think if he tried that with Louis, caretakers would be scraping his insides off of the front row.

But his face would still be pretty!



I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the dehydration. Louis tagged Conn real good in the 5th, now ordinarily that would have been the end of Conn's night.

Then you have those awkward moments when Conn would dart in and trade blows with Louis. A healthy Louis would not have tolerated that and sent Conn down for a few but Conn was even able to win some of those trades!



I don't understand. Are you saying that Ali would start punching to stop Louis from following through with the real punch?

Watch an Ali highlight video and you'll see his almost supernatural ability to lean out of the way of a blow. Now that's all well and good when there are no feints coming your way, but I guarantee, at least once he'd lean back from a feint and Louis would move in and catch him with something hard. But few were better at adapting than Ali. Who knows, maybe this would correct Ali and make him even better!



I think Louis would beat Holmes, but without some of the glaring defensive mistakes that Ali would show, I think Louis would beat him by a competitive but unanimous decision.

It's nice to see that someone else loves watching Jersey Joe Walcott too. One of a kind fighter.

EDIT: Don't be fooled, I think Ali was better than Holmes, I just think that Holmes was more fundamentally solid.

That's why Holmes was able to take Tyson 4 rounds at the age of 39. I don't think Ali could've taken Tyson 1 round at the age he fought Holmes.

Hell I think Holmes could've ended their fight whenever he wanted to. Maybe that would've been more merciful. That fight should never have been sanctioned in the first place...

I guess on this subject we'll see things differently. But thats cool.

I'd agree that rope a dope would be foolish for Ali to attempt against as precise a puncher as Louis.

As for the Cooper fight in 1963, Clay wasn't anything like the finished article. He hopelessly underestimated Cooper. 'That' Clay may well have lost to a prime Louis too. The one thing we do find with fighters is that they fight better when given a bigger challenge, Ali for example looked much better when he fought Liston in (I believe the very next fight). Ali would turn up for Louis in better shape, with a better focus.

As for feints, I just don't think they'd benefit Louis with Ali. I think Ali's game would be to dance and jab and I can see Louis repeatedly beaten to the punch by the superior reach and speed of Ali's left. I don't think Ali would fight Joe flat footed, so I don't think we'd see much in the way of left Jab fencing. As for cornering Ali, he was damn slippy, Liston (with a much longer reach and at least as heavy hands as Louis) tried hard at it for three rounds, with little success. But Louis rarely showed real urgency or Frazier like pressure.

I don't think Louis's footspeed was fast enough either.....he was called shuffling Joe for a reason. His style worked perfectly for him, no reason to change it at the time. But I don't see him beating a prime, motivated Ali.

Never mind, we all see things differently....and we all have our faves.

Going back to Holmes. I think he'd have done much better than four rounds in 1988 with Tyson with a couple of warm up fights and a longer fight preparation. Holmes was much better at 42 when he was fighting Mercer and Holyfield after a well planned comeback.

I'd be careful about comparing fighters respective performances at the same age. Ali was hopelessly shot at 38. Head punches can take their toll on a fighter at any age. Some fighters can be shot at 25, some.....like Bernard Hopkins can be sharp at 46.

[Spartacus Sully]

ali was no where near fast enough to roll what louis threw and he would probly even roll into the wrong thing and end up countered.

Louis to ko ali in 8.

[Capaedia]

I guess on this subject we'll see things differently. But thats cool.

I'd agree that rope a dope would be foolish for Ali to attempt against as precise a puncher as Louis.

As for the Cooper fight in 1963, Clay wasn't anything like the finished article. He hopelessly underestimated Cooper. 'That' Clay may well have lost to a prime Louis too. The one thing we do find with fighters is that they fight better when given a bigger challenge, Ali for example looked much better when he fought Liston in (I believe the very next fight). Ali would turn up for Louis in better shape, with a better focus.

As for feints, I just don't think they'd benefit Louis with Ali. I think Ali's game would be to dance and jab and I can see Louis repeatedly beaten to the punch by the superior reach and speed of Ali's left. I don't think Ali would fight Joe flat footed, so I don't think we'd see much in the way of left Jab fencing. As for cornering Ali, he was damn slippy, Liston (with a much longer reach and at least as heavy hands as Louis) tried hard at it for three rounds, with little success. But Louis rarely showed real urgency or Frazier like pressure.

I don't think Louis's footspeed was fast enough either.....he was called shuffling Joe for a reason. His style worked perfectly for him, no reason to change it at the time. But I don't see him beating a prime, motivated Ali.

Never mind, we all see things differently....and we all have our faves.

I think at this point it's just best to agree to disagree, I'd have Ali by UD once in a trilogy though if it helps (... Although it probably dosen't)

Going back to Holmes. I think he'd have done much better than four rounds in 1988 with Tyson with a couple of warm up fights and a longer fight preparation. Holmes was much better at 42 when he was fighting Mercer and Holyfield after a well planned comeback.

Well he was spot on when he was talking about how he would beat Tyson, I think you're right there. Even at that age he could give Tyson trouble with his jab, nevermind the footwork!

I'd be careful about comparing fighters respective performances at the same age. Ali was hopelessly shot at 38. Head punches can take their toll on a fighter at any age. Some fighters can be shot at 25, some.....like Bernard Hopkins can be sharp at 46.

My point was that once Ali's speed started to desert him, it became clear that he never had a great grasp on some of the fundamentals. Sadly this is what I see with Roy Jones Jr. today.

Holmes however had great fundamentals, hence why he was able to keep going when he'd slowed down considerably.