Calzaghe vs Dawson at 175 lbs

[RubenSonny]

Calzaghe wins all day long on points, but if it was Calzaghe in his twenties Dawson would get tko'd.

Yeah I forgot Calzaghe stopped tonnes of world-class operators in his twenties.....

[IMDAZED]

Let's see how Dawson looks next week. I think his skills are as good as anyone in the sport but his chin appears weak. Could be his downfall again very soon, especially if Manny Steward wants to make him an aggressive fighter.

[RubenSonny]

Toney's right, both Jackson and Daniels were way past prime and Daniels was a natural jr. mw anyway. Much smaller man who wasn't even prime anymore. Jackson was more prime than Daniels, but still past prime. Echols and Allen were onedimensional punchers/brawlers and they still managed to give Hopkins a tough fight. Stop overhyping your man, just because you worship him it doesn't mean he really was a legend.

He's simply a keen technical fighter who profitted from his experience, both in and outside the ring. He went on making millions by schooling non-technicians. And in the process got himself ranked alongside Monzon and Hagler somehow...idiotic American press.

When did I make any mention of Jackson? Daniels was in the top 10 as I said, no nuthugging going on here, just your poor attempt at getting one over me.

I rank both Monzon and Hagler above Hopkins, funny that you mention Hagler when you called him "nothing special" or something of the sort.

[DeepSleep]

I think Calzaghe is extremely overrated(Your best win is against 73 year old Hopkins???) but he is tailor made to give Dawson huge problems due to his punch output. Dawson seems too timid to handle a guy like Calzaghe who will flood him with punches.

[Toney616]

I'm not a Hopkins fan and pretty much everyone counts it as a win for Whitaker which was not the official verdict.

I'm familiar with Toney's resume so I'm going to use it to highlight my point:

James Toney
Noticable Wins:
Nunn
McCallum
R.Johnson
Jirov

Questionable wins:
Tiberi*

Noticable Losses:
Jones
Griffin I
Griffin II
Sam Peter II

Questionable Losses:
Sam Peter I*

I'm still following the official rulings, but I have put certain fights in the questionable categories. When I evaluate Toney's resume I cant give him the Peter I win, even though I had him winning by at least 2 points. All I can do is place it in the questionable loss category and say that it doesn't hurt his resume. Likewise I had Tiberi winning every round against Toney, and thought he was blatantly robbed. So I put that "win" in the questionable win bracket and don't really value it as much. The point is I'm still working with the official scoring

..........Its obvious.

A great fighter(ATG) to me is a fighter who takes risks and tests himself against the best available competition out there. If he finds himself in a barren wasteland and has the frame to move up (think Hearns at ww), then he moves up to push his career to the next level. Staying in a barren wasteland and racking up title defenses against journeyman is not my definition of a ATG

So you admit you think he got robbed, if he had earned the verdict it would have made no difference to what he did in the ring. Its clear you will reach as far as you can to discredit Hopkins.

I never denied he got robbed. I'm sure if you look at some of the threads about the fight you will see my scorecard giving the fight to Hopkins. I would place the fight in the following category:

Questionable draws/decisions:
Pascal

Me bringing up the the Pascal fight was to highlight another point. If Hopkins has no problem with bending the rules to suit him, he should have no problem with biased refs bending the rules to suit them.

So you've already ranked the win yet its value is dependent on what Margarito does, that makes no sense. A clear example of how you will reach to discredit Hopkins.

Lets take a look at the Marg win:
Pacquaio made his pro debut at 106 lbs(flyweight) and would beat Margarito at jmw (catchweight 150) to earn his 8 division title. The dude won a belt at 40 lbs+ above his pro debut. How can that not be classed as a solid win? How many fighters have done something similar? Not many that for sure. The win is at least a B level win.

In order for Hopkins to have a equivalent win he would have to move up to cw and take on a fighter there. A naturally bigger opponent that has the power to hurt him, maybe even stop him if they connect enough. The sort of fight Hopkins always shys away from

Again, I'm not a Hopkins fan, I respect him and root for him most of the time.

Isn't that what a fan does?

He was nowhere near as cut as he was at MW thats undeniable

When you train to put on muscle you also put on fat. In order to negate muscle catabolism you will try to take in more calories then you will burn up.
Either way I don't see how this negates him training with Shilstone to put on 10lbs of muscle.

you don't naturally grow at that age, your bodyweight stabilizes in terms of growth by around 30 (usually a little before).

It sounds to me like you are confusing body-weight with height.
Your body-weight varies according to various factors: genetics/lifestyle etc it is hardly dependent on age. Hopkins at mw would train to get to 172 lbs and then he would drain himself to reach the 160 lb limit. What happened was that as time went on and his metabolism slowed down, he started to find it was getting harder to shred the last 1-2 lbs. So he decided to move up, which involved him doing weight training so he could compete with the naturally bigger guys at lhw.

On the flip side you have guys like Toney, who put on 20-30 lbs of fat in between fights so you notice he tended to quickly outgrow various divisions.

But its absolutely cool to like known steroid users, right.

Toney's my boy threw thick and thin. Was it ****** for him to take roids for the Ruiz fight? Of course it was. And did he deserve to get stripped and a banned? Of course. If he wants to keep disgracing himself at hw that his business, but his still my fav mw-smw fighter. Him using roids at hw in no why negates his body of work at the lower divisions.

On the flip side a number of fighters have been busted: Jones, Toney, Vargas and Mosley

Guys who are expected to have used at some point in their career: DLH, Holyfield, Hopkins, Lewis, McCline, Pacman

Hauser on Hopkins(2010):

And speaking of age; let’s have a round of applause for another Golden Boy fighter; Bernard Hopkins. People talk a lot about what great shape Bernard is in and how remarkable it is that a fighter well into his forties can perform the way he does.

I consider Hopkins a great fighter. Other fighters have moved up in weight and excelled in the manner of Manny Pacquiao. But there is no precedent for a fighter performing as agelessly as Bernard has. I’m aware of no proof whatsoever that Hopkins has used illegal performance enhancing drugs at any time in his career. Of course, to my knowledge, Bernard hasn’t undergone USADA testing.

http://www.secondsout.com/columns/th...eds-and-boxing
It is the reason why Pascal is asking him to submit to OST and Hopkins is refusing.

Its a given that he would hire someone to make the weight transition.

Then why have you been going on about old man weight?

In his prime Marquez would come into the ring around 140 (a little under I think), its clear that the added pounds are due to age, and its clear since hes more fleshy than once was, as is the case with Hopkins.

No its not. Jmm never outgrew the sfw division, he made the move voluntarily to chase Pacquaio and force a third fight. Just because a fighter puts on weight doesn't mean that age has anything to do with it.

Its obvious that you'd pick a washed up fighter against a prime one if its in an effort to discredit hopkins.

lol. For a NON Hopkins fan you are pretty protective of him, thats for sure.
Was Eubank past prime? Of course. Did he give Calzaghe his toughest fight? Of course, he did. Would that version of Eubank get ktfo by guys like Pavlik, Froch and Abraham? Of course not. If a past prime Eubank takes punches from Thompson at cw, the chances of him getting ktfo by German club fighters is highly unlikely.

For the record I agree that Taylor is better than most of the people on Calzaghes resume, including Hopkins, who he beat twice. Taylor is also better than everyone on Hopkins resume, except Pavlik(who he had no business losing to) and maybe a case could be made for Tarver.

[SCtrojansbaby]

For the record I agree that Taylor is better than most of the people on Calzaghes resume, including Hopkins, who he beat twice. Taylor is also better than everyone on Hopkins resume, except Pavlik(who he had no business losing to) and maybe a case could be made for Tarver.

Are you ******?

[Toney616]

Funny how you flip flop with this whole official verdict thing.

See my above post
Also there's a big difference between out-boxing a guy and getting robbed on the cards and trying to steal a fight and coming up short on the cards

He arguably had the best year of any active fighter that year..

What has that got to do with anything? If you are forced to resort to low blows to cope with green jmws(Reid), then the chances of you being elite at mw is highly unlikely

Displaying Hopkins greatness

His great because he outboxed Tito? Hopkins is a defensive minded counter-puncher who style wise is a bad match up for 1d punchers like Echols, Pavlik and Johnson. You notice he tended to struggle against unorthodox fighters with fast hands like Calzaghe and Jones. It's the reason he would turn down Jones and Calzaghe 2002-2003.

Proof of you reaching as far as you can, he wasn't the same after the Hopkins fight and everyone knows that,

Bouie Fisher(Hopkins trainer)

I talked to William Joppy before his last fight and he brought up an issue that Trinidad's people wrapped Tito's hand illegally and that is why he lost. He said that your people caught Trinidad illegally wrapping his hands. Can you tell us what happened?

I tell you, Ike. They have been getting away with that for a long time. I sent my people to Trinidad's locker room to make sure everything was right. When they got there they came back to me and told me that Trinidad's left hand was wrapped before they got there. So, I had to go over to his dressing room myself, this is my business and I have been doing it for over 50 years. When I got there I told them to unwrap the hand and do it over because we need to see the hand being wrapped. They refused to unwrap the hands so I told them I guess the fight will not happen then, we can reschedule to another date. The officials came in and said we don't have time to do this over. I told them, well we must do this right or no fight. They know the rules, no tape on the skin or tape on the ankle. His left hand was heavy just like your camera. Guess what, the officials then said you can go and wrap Bernard hands anyway you want. Trinidad's father and his people didn't want to make the change because they knew they cheated and they tried to cover it up by asking me to wrap Bernard's hands anyway we wish. I wasn't going for that, we have to do this right, they raised hell like you couldn't believe. I said you can do it your way, but there will be no fight if you don't do it right. They said we are going to leave it as it is, so I told them we can reschedule the fight untill next week. They didn't want to do that. This is why we had a delay coming out. When they saw Bernard they tried to ask us to take off just a little tape, but they had a half roll of tape on Trinidad's left hand. This is why people say he has a good left hook. David Reid paid a big price, Trinidad took away the fighter in him. David Reids people were trying to schedule a fight with Bernard and it could have happened if Reid would have won his last fight. I'm glad it never happened.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...w.google.co.uk
Hopkins speaks on it here:
Go to 3:00

You should also check out the post fight interview with Hopkins, Tito and Merchant

he also retired between these fights, bringing up the Jones fight is completely pathetic and shows how much your willing to reach.

lol. I dont need to reach past the handwrap issue

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm

What makes those guys experts? The only names I recognize there are Steve Kim, Steve Farhood, George Kimball and Bert Sugars and I wouldn't class them as experts either. How about some predictions from top trainers instead, people whose job it is to know boxing inside and out?

Exactly right...

Wins over journeyman mean nothing and doesn't help to put Hopkins resume above Calzaghe's in any way

Yeah like most active fighters, thats a given.

When those guys are called living legends and their best wins are over the little guys, then would I call their resumes overrated.

Resorting to childish nicknames? Well you can have a look at my thread, look at all the great posters that didn't think it was clearly Hopkins, you've got Tunney, Zagz and Jermainerambo on your side

I had a peek and it is basically the point I made before. Hopkins fans will say that Hopkins resume is miles better. Why? Because they say it is. How many of those guys will make a serious coherent argument to make their point?

Yeah its cool man you hate dirty tactics but love steroid users.

Says the Non-fan of a guy who is now refusing to be tested?

Either way, cheating is cheating. Am I going to start hating Toney's work in the lower divisions because he went up to hw to be a steroid taking fat bum? Of course not. I don't even follow his hw career and I wish he would retire already.

[Toney616]

Okay well I will just leave it there nothing more to say, you hate him too much to have a decent debate about it, Calzaghe resume = Hopkins resume is an insane statement.

We never had a debate about it. All you said was that he beat top contenders like Mercado and Lipsey, a point which I easily dismissed. Outside of that we have been arguing about everything else, except making a solid comparison of their resumes.

Hopkins mw resume:
a level wins:0
b+ level wins:Felix Trinidad
b level wins:Robert Allen II, Robert Allen III, Antwun Echols I, Antwun Echols II, Keith Holmes, William Joppy
Draws: Mercado(b-)
NC: Allen I(b)
Losses:Jones(a), Taylor I(b+), Taylor II(b+)


Calzaghes smw resume
a level wins: 0
b+ level wins: Kessler
b level wins:Chris Eubank Robin Reid Charles Brewer Byron Mitchell Jeff Lacy
Draws: 0
Losses:0

A comparison:
Wins:
Kessler=< Tito
History has shown that Tito wasnt that good at mw, he lost to every mw he faces above b level. His best win is over Joppy(b). Kessler was a natural smw and his best win at smw is over Froch(b+)
Joppy=Reid
Neither of these guys beat anyone of note, Reid deserves to have a win over Ottke
Brewer=Keith Holmes:
Don't recognise anyone on Holmes resume, except Quincy Jackson(?) and Cherfifi(b-), Brewer has a win over a solid version of Herol Graham(b+)
Byron Mitchell=Robert Allen II:
Mitchells best win is a win over a past prime Liles(b+), Allen was still basically a green contender and never beat anyone worth mentioning
Jeff Lacy=Robert Allen III:
Beat similar level of competition
Eubank=< Echols:
Eubank was semi retired, so I can give this to Echols

Hopkins still has the Echols II win
NC:
Hopkins has a NC with Allen I, where he jumped threw the ropes because Allen was giving him a hard time
Draws:
Hopkins drew with Mercado(b-) who was a journeyman
Losses:
Jones, Taylor I, Taylor II

If Calzaghe's resume is crap, what does that say about Hopkins resume? The best mw's he fought were Jones, Taylor I and Taylor II and the last time I checked he lost all of those fights.

[Toney616]

Are you ******?

He beat Hopkins twice

[Toney616]

Let's see how Dawson looks next week. I think his skills are as good as anyone in the sport but his chin appears weak. Could be his downfall again very soon, especially if Manny Steward wants to make him an aggressive fighter.

At times he seems to be just going through the motions rather than looking like his there because he wants to be there. He had no business losing to the likes of Pascal either. I dont think he has much choice but to be more aggressive though, seeing as how his past viewing figures/ratings havent been too good