Who was the best offensive fighter in history

[New England]

Tyson had the POTENTIAL to be a great inside fighter, he certainly had the right body type for it. He just didn't translate that potential to reality. The truth is, Tyson didn't like fighting on the inside preferring instead to fight at mid-range where he could get maximum leverage on his punches. On those occasions where he did wind up inside he usually tied his opponents up and let the ref put him back out to the range he wanted without having to work his way there (and expending limited energy doing it) which to my mind is just smart ring tactics.

Poet

inside for the bigger longer guy he's fighting


middle for ground mike tyson


i wouldnt call him a pure infighter
but did fight his way inside of his opponents offense

[physiker]

Pre-Douglas Tyson had awesome offense.
Pre-Ali Foreman was also monstrous.

Joe Louis, I can't see. If such "greats" as 2-ton Tony Galento (and numerous others) could drop Louis, and Conn--a LHW--walked through Louis' offense for 13 rounds, until he got foolish, how great could it have been?

[StarshipTrooper]

inside for the bigger longer guy he's fighting

middle for ground mike tyson

i wouldnt call him a pure infighter
but did fight his way inside of his opponents offense

You raise an interesting point and I'll get back to it after I get enough coffee into me to qualify as lucid :hah9:

Poet

[IronDanHamza]

Pre-Douglas Tyson had awesome offense.
Pre-Ali Foreman was also monstrous.

Joe Louis, I can't see. If such "greats" as 2-ton Tony Galento (and numerous others) could drop Louis, and Conn--a LHW--walked through Louis' offense for 13 rounds, until he got foolish, how great could it have been?

You can't see it?

The Baer brothers, Carnera, Schmeling, Braddock (and numerous others) disagree with you.

I don't understand this Galento example which is always used to try and discredit Louis. Firstly, Galento was a decent fighter who could punch. He knocked Louis down? Ok...Then Louis went on to brutally stop him, like no one else had prior to that in Galento's long career.

Billy Conn walked through his offense "until he got foolish". That foolishness against Joe Louis will cost you a brutal KO, doesn't that support that idea he has an all time great offense? That it only need one act of foolishness to be brutally knocked out?

Joe Louis only needed two right hands to end the fight with Billy Conn, thats how good his offense is. Again, that example doesn't support your argument.

Years later Billy Conn said himself; "Of all the times to be a wise guy, I had to pick it against him"

Guess why he said that? Because Joe Louis is one of the greatest offensive fighters of all time..

[Steak]

I dissected Louis' career a while back. The number of top competition he beat is amazing. There really is no argument for rating anyone above him other than Ali.

Of all thing to question Louis on, offense wasnt one I expected to come up. The way he could get such leverage within such a small amount of space was amazing. you can watch as his opponent's entire upper bodies are thrown back by the force of his punches

[physiker]

You can't see it?

The Baer brothers, Carnera, Schmeling, Braddock (and numerous others) disagree with you.

I don't understand this Galento example which is always used to try and discredit Louis. Firstly, Galento was a decent fighter who could punch. He knocked Louis down? Ok...Then Louis went on to brutally stop him, like no one else had prior to that in Galento's long career.

Billy Conn walked through his offense "until he got foolish". That foolishness against Joe Louis will cost you a brutal KO, doesn't that support that idea he has an all time great offense? That it only need one act of foolishness to be brutally knocked out?

Joe Louis only needed two right hands to end the fight with Billy Conn, thats how good his offense is. Again, that example doesn't support your argument.

Years later Billy Conn said himself; "Of all the times to be a wise guy, I had to pick it against him"

Guess why he said that? Because Joe Louis is one of the greatest offensive fighters of all time..

I wrote Galento--and others--dropped Louis.
First off I am not arguing Joe Louis' greatness, though I don't think he was quite as great as the official line. Politics plays a large part.
Louis was KOed by Schmelling, dropped by Walcott several times in the 1st fight (if I recall correctly) and gifted the decision. Schmelling weighed 192.

Conn weighed 182 and if the fight were the 12 rounds of today, he would have won. I believe Ezzard Charles weighed 184 when he beat Louis. And yes Galento was a fat bum. No world class boxer should be KDed by him.

Louis himself weighed what about 195 or so for many of his fights. Bigger, heavier fighters with longer reach would be too much for him. Louis was dropped by fairly low weight guys. His offens eif that great should have kept these "little" guys off of him.

I am sure if he hit anyone flush on the chin, they'd go. But the ones I chose for greatest offense, Tyson, Foreman would have dropped Joe quickly. Ali would have easily beat him too. Liston and many others would have shown who had the greater offense IMO.

[StarshipTrooper]

I wrote Galento--and others--dropped Louis.
First off I am not arguing Joe Louis' greatness, though I don't think he was quite as great as the official line. Politics plays a large part.
Louis was KOed by Schmelling, dropped by Walcott several times in the 1st fight (if I recall correctly) and gifted the decision. Schmelling weighed 192.

Conn weighed 182 and if the fight were the 12 rounds of today, he would have won. I believe Ezzard Charles weighed 184 when he beat Louis. And yes Galento was a fat bum. No world class boxer should be KDed by him.

Louis himself weighed what about 195 or so for many of his fights. Bigger, heavier fighters with longer reach would be too much for him. Louis was dropped by fairly low weight guys. His offens eif that great should have kept these "little" guys off of him.

I am sure if he hit anyone flush on the chin, they'd go. But the ones I chose for greatest offense, Tyson, Foreman would have dropped Joe quickly. Ali would have easily beat him too. Liston and many others would have shown who had the greater offense IMO.

This sounds like another of KNN's size whoring alts :rolleyes9:

[IronDanHamza]

I wrote Galento--and others--dropped Louis.
First off I am not arguing Joe Louis' greatness, though I don't think he was quite as great as the official line. Politics plays a large part.
Louis was KOed by Schmelling, dropped by Walcott several times in the 1st fight (if I recall correctly) and gifted the decision. Schmelling weighed 192.

I believe Ezzard Charles weighed 184 when he beat Louis.

Ok...That was what to do with his offensive game?

Why are we chosing to forget that Louis was openly out of shape for the first Schmeling fight? And that Louis was past his prime for the Walcott and Charles fights?

He was knocked down numerous times. That doesn't change the fact he beat the hell out of many top opponents with his exceptional offensive game.

Conn weighed 182 and if the fight were the 12 rounds of today, he would have won.

Well the Conn fight wasn't 12 rounds was it. It was 15 rounds.

If it were a 12 round fight, the fight would be different wouldn't it.

And yes Galento was a fat bum. No world class boxer should be KDed by him.

Galento wasn't a great fighter but he could certainly punch. He caught Louis a few times in the early rounds, one of which caused the KD. Thennn Louis stopped him, like no one else did up to that point.

Louis himself weighed what about 195 or so for many of his fights. Bigger, heavier fighters with longer reach would be too much for him. Louis was dropped by fairly low weight guys. His offens eif that great should have kept these "little" guys off of him.

This has what to do with a fighters offensive game? Although Louis dealt with bigger guys plenty of times.

He did keep these 'little guys' off him. Not only did he 'keep tem off him' but he very regularly knocked them into oblivion..

Unless your refering to fights we know he was past his prime like Walcott, Charles and Marciano?

Or like when he was unprepared like he was against Schmeling?

I am sure if he hit anyone flush on the chin, they'd go. But the ones I chose for greatest offense, Tyson, Foreman would have dropped Joe quickly. Ali would have easily beat him too. Liston and many others would have shown who had the greater offense IMO.

Yes, sounds like a pretty good offense trait to me.

Why do you keep refering to H2H match ups to identify someones offense?

"Ali would have easily beaten him" .......What does that have to do with anything.

What does the fact you think Liston, Foreman and Tyson woul drop Joe quickly have to do with how good Joe Louis' offense is?

You can't see Joe Louis having a case for the greatest offense of all time.

That's fine. You're in the minority with that one.

[awais]

depending on how gamboa develops he could have a case in the future

[physiker]

This sounds like another of KNN's size whoring alts :rolleyes9:

Please I was the one who recently had to deal with that feck.

Someone can't say that Louis was smaller and less powerful than the HWs of more recent times? Do you see any sickening photos of apes or such at my posts?

If I said Usain Bolt would crush Jesse Owens in a race, because he is so much bigger, etc. , does that mean I am demeaning Owens great achievements?

If all the top HWs in their primes fought each other, I think Ali woul dbe on top, and a good few others would be in between him and Joe Louis, because these others would be just too much for him. IOW, their OFFENSE would be too much which is what this thread was about. And just about all these others in between were black, so please don't put me with that creature who was trying to say the Klitschkos are the greatest of all time or such.

They are examples where the biggest is not the best IMO. Maybe even Joe Louis would have gotten inside and sparked those two out. But many HWs I stand by would have taken Louis out. I think Louis himself said Liston would have taken him out due to his offense.