Joe Frazier delivers hellacious beating to Ali.

[CarlosG815]

Ali was prime in 1967, after his lay off he was not. Maybe you should actually read what he said and respond.

Wow, just checked boxrec and noticed that other notable post ban wins include Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle and George Chuvalo.

Now where is your evidence that Ali was not prime?

[young_robbed]

Wow, just checked boxrec and noticed that other notable post ban wins include Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle and George Chuvalo.

Now where is your evidence that Ali was not prime?

Just because he beat these men doesn't mean he's prime. you can clearly see that Ali isn't as fast, fluid, or had the same movement he did in 64-67.
Can't you tell, that he wasn't really that good against Lyle, Norton, and Shavers?
Lyle, he was losing to on points until the stoppage, norton really fought him close in all 3 matches, and Shavers had him hurt constantly throughout the bout, and could've won that himself

[StarshipTrooper]

"Not the same" doesn't mean worse. Joe may have had an easier time with the smaller Ali who liked to Dance more.

In boxing "not the same" DOES mean worse and no Frazier wouldn't have had an easier time against the Ali of '67. Frank Lotierzo may be a respected boxing historian but in this instance he's full of ****.

Now where is your evidence that Ali was not prime?

A fighter is past-prime when his reflexes start to slide. In Ali's case it was pretty clear his were no longer as sharp as they were prior to his exile.

Look, this isn't downing Frazier's win: A past-prime Ali still beats most of the other greats on any ATG list of repute. Quite frankly it would have been very difficult to for ANY of the greats (other than, say, Foreman) to beat Frazier that night. It was one of those once in a generation performances.

Bear in mind too that I don't particulary like Ali on a personal level while I do like Frazier and if they were fighting today I'd be pulling for Joe to kick his azz.

Poet

[joseph5620]

All good performances but not better performances. And apparently you did not read this piece by Frank Lotierzo. So there is at least 3 of us on the planet who believe that.


March 8, 1971 Frazier vs. Ali I

Frazier vs. Ali I was the biggest and most anticipated sporting event in history. Never before have two undefeated heavyweights both in their prime had a legitimate claim to the title like Ali and Frazier did in 1971. Some insist that Ali was not at his best due to his 43 month layoff when he fought Frazier the first time, and there is much merit to that claim. Even though he stopped the top two contenders at the time in Quarry and Bonavena, before fighting Frazier. However, after seeing the fight, there is absolutely no question that Ali never threw and landed harder punches than he did on Joe Frazier in their first fight. In fact, during the first five rounds of Super-Fight one, Ali was never sharper or punched better. If you doubt that, I suggest you go back and look at the tape of rounds one through five.

Many fans and historians believe Ali's peak was his fight versus Cleveland Williams. Williams may have been Ali's peak regarding his speed and brilliance, but he had not filled out to where he was when he fought Frazier at age 29. The Ali of March 1971 was bigger, stronger, hit harder, and a more formidable fighter than the Ali of November 1966. During Ali's exile he matured and got stronger.

Going into the Frazier fight, many questioned Ali's chin, and toughness. Throughout his first fight with Frazier, Ali was hit continuously with Frazier's devastating left hook to the body and head. Never before or after had any fighter landed on Ali with the frequency and power of Frazier. Also during this fight, Ali launched and landed some of the swiftest and hardest combinations he ever hit any fighter with. Had Ali been fighting any other heavyweight except that Joe Frazier on that night, he would've most likely been a knockout winner.

The problem Ali had, was a prime 27 year old Joe Frazier in front of him. Going into his first fight with Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier was better prepared mentally and physically than any other fighter in history was for any opponent. Frazier knew he had the perfect style to fight Ali, and at that time in his career, he had it down pat. On the night of March 8th, 1971, Frazier was not to be denied. He was ready for anything Ali had to offer mentally or physically.

Going into Frazier-Ali I, Ali's plan was to beat Frazier up so badly early in the fight that he would either stop him, or have him so beaten up that he wouldn't have anything left for the last five rounds of the bout. By Frazier being so determined to beat Ali, he forced him to fight at a pace Ali wasn't accustomed to. Frazier also forced Ali to punch with authority just to try and keep him off. This resulted in Ali throwing bombs at Joe. Although Ali really rocked Joe in those first three or four rounds, he wasn't able to get him out. From rounds 6 through 15, Ali did all he could to try and impede Frazier's aggression, but Frazier was not to be denied. On this night, Ali never hit harder or demonstrated a better chin. I don't care what fight of Ali's career you think of, he was never better than he was against Joe Frazier in their first fight. He never hit harder or took it better, it's just that on March 8th 1971 Joe Frazier fought possibly the greatest fight of any heavyweight in boxing history.

I did read it and it doesn't change my views one bit.

[joseph5620]

Wow, just checked boxrec and noticed that other notable post ban wins include Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle and George Chuvalo.

Now where is your evidence that Ali was not prime?

So you think Ali was in his prime when he fought Shavers? Because he won?

[StarshipTrooper]

I did read it and it doesn't change my views one bit.

Funny how Lotierzo seems to think "stronger" equates to "better".....it doesn't. I'd give money that Tyson was stronger post-prison than pre-prison given all the iron he was pumping while incarcerated. It didn't make him a better fighter and anyone who would argure post-prison Tyson was Tyson at his best has rocks in his head.

Ali didn't "suddenly" develope a chin or the ability to take punishment during his exile. Those are inate traits and you either have them or you don't: They aren't something you just develope. He may have shown those traits post-exhile, but that's simply because he was getting hit alot more post-exhile than he was prior to that due to diminished reflexes. Fighters with great defense usually DON'T demonstrate how good their chins are and their ability to take punishment until they're past-prime and their defense slips.

Poet

[pacquia0]

No other fighter Ali ever faced forced him to miss so many punches, countered him, and landed so many devastating punches to the face of Muhammad Ali. Joe Frazier beat the living snot out of Ali and it almost looked as if Frazier was on a whole other level and it was as if Ali was not the same class fighter as Joe Frazier.

What other fighter in history could have handled Ali the way Frazier man handled him?

Ali said that Marciano was better than Frazier so I can see him beating Ali. Tyson also is better than Frazier in most areas like speed, defence, chin, power etc.

Holyfield, Witherspoon and Bowe all could give that Ali tough fights.

[joseph5620]

Funny how Lotierzo seems to think "stronger" equates to "better".....it doesn't. I'd give money that Tyson was stronger post-prison than pre-prison given all the iron he was pumping while incarcerated. It didn't make him a better fighter and anyone who would argure post-prison Tyson was Tyson at his best has rocks in his head.

Ali didn't "suddenly" develope a chin or the ability to take punishment during his exhile. Those are inate traits and you either have them or you don't: They aren't something you just develope. He may have shown those traits post-exhile, but that's simply because he was getting hit alot more post-exhile than he was prior to that due to diminished reflexes. Fighters with great defense usually DON'T demonstrate how good their chins are and their ability to take punishment until they're past-prime and their defense slips.

Poet

I've always been confused by that logic as well. Either you can take a punch or you can't. It's not something you "develope"

[CarlosG815]

I've always been confused by that logic as well. Either you can take a punch or you can't. It's not something you "develope"

Isn't the entire reason behind weight classes is the theory says that heavier men can take a harder punch? Obviously if Ali was bigger he could take more of a punch.

[joseph5620]

Isn't the entire reason behind weight classes is the theory says that heavier men can take a harder punch? Obviously if Ali was bigger he could take more of a punch.

Ali was not significantly bigger when he fought Frazier. 213,212,215 in the first three fights of his comeback including Frazier. 212.212,211. Before the lay off. Basically the same weight. That's not even comperable to moving up in weight.


I don't see in any way how that had any impact on his ability to take a punch.