Rating Frazier

[Holtol]

Origianly posted by Blackirish137, I dont care that much about losses when it comes to ATG ranking. especially seeing as he avenged both losses.
its who you can beat that matters to me, and overall Lewis beat better competition.

beating Vitali is a great win, regardless of how dominant it was.

I don't think Lewis beat better fighters then Marciano. I think Holyfield won the second fight. And when an opponent is begging to continue in a fight he is winning that is not a great win imo. It could have been a great win but not the way Lewis won it. Vitali's loss was almost as great as Lewis's win lol.

[Pastrano]

Id rate Joe at about nr.10. Letsee how that would go:

Louis
Marciano
Ali
Dempsey
Liston
Tyson
Frazier
Holmes
Patterson
Charles

Well, lookit that, he came up at nr.7! And no, I don't rate Foreman at top 10. Besides dispatching Frazier (a much smaller man who he roughoused) and Norton (looked to be out of shape), what else has he done to earn a top 10 ATG rating??! NADA! Koing Moorer with a lucky shot doesn't qualify. I rate Norton above him (he'd be nr.11 I think), coz he BEAT Ali twice in reality and also beat more good fighters like Quarry and Jimmy Young (who also beat Foreman, naturally). And he AT LEAST fought Shavers, who Foreman ducked. Unfortunately, Ken was past prime while Shavers was at his peak. He also lost a razor thin split decision to a peak Holmes.

[SBleeder]

Id rate Joe at about nr.10. Letsee how that would go:

Louis
Marciano
Ali
Dempsey
Liston
Tyson
Frazier
Holmes
Patterson
Charles

Well, lookit that, he came up at nr.7! And no, I don't rate Foreman at top 10. Besides dispatching Frazier (a much smaller man who he roughoused) and Norton (looked to be out of shape), what else has he done to earn a top 10 ATG rating??! NADA! Koing Moorer with a lucky shot doesn't qualify. I rate Norton above him (he'd be nr.11 I think), coz he BEAT Ali twice in reality and also beat more good fighters like Quarry and Jimmy Young (who also beat Foreman, naturally). And he AT LEAST fought Shavers, who Foreman ducked. Unfortunately, Ken was past prime while Shavers was at his peak. He also lost a razor thin split decision to a peak Holmes.

Frazier ducked Shavers too.

[Joeyzagz]

I don't think Lewis beat better fighters then Marciano. I think Holyfield won the second fight. And when an opponent is begging to continue in a fight he is winning that is not a great win imo. It could have been a great win but not the way Lewis won it. Vitali's loss was almost as great as Lewis's win lol.

.
How many examples can you find of a 37 year old fending off a young champ of the next era?

Ali couldnt beat Holmes
Liston couldnt beat Ali
Wlillard couldnt beat Dempsey
Johnson couldnt beat Willard
Jeffries couldnt beat Johnson
Fitz couldnt beat Jeffries

^^^None of the above caused the damage to their younger opponent that Lennox did Vitali. If Marciano wouldve challenged Liston in 1961, then you would have an argument.

[IronDanHamza]

Id rate Joe at about nr.10. Letsee how that would go:

Louis
Marciano
Ali
Dempsey
Liston
Tyson
Frazier
Holmes
Patterson
Charles

Well, lookit that, he came up at nr.7! And no, I don't rate Foreman at top 10. Besides dispatching Frazier (a much smaller man who he roughoused) and Norton (looked to be out of shape), what else has he done to earn a top 10 ATG rating??! NADA! Koing Moorer with a lucky shot doesn't qualify. I rate Norton above him (he'd be nr.11 I think), coz he BEAT Ali twice in reality and also beat more good fighters like Quarry and Jimmy Young (who also beat Foreman, naturally). And he AT LEAST fought Shavers, who Foreman ducked. Unfortunately, Ken was past prime while Shavers was at his peak. He also lost a razor thin split decision to a peak Holmes.

Ken Norton looked in increidble shape against Foreman.

Care to explain how you have Patterson and Charles in the Top 10 and not Foreman?

[Holtol]

.
How many examples can you find of a 37 year old fending off a young champ of the next era?

Ali couldnt beat Holmes
Liston couldnt beat Ali
Wlillard couldnt beat Dempsey
Johnson couldnt beat Willard
Jeffries couldnt beat Johnson
Fitz couldnt beat Jeffries

^^^None of the above caused the damage to their younger opponent that Lennox did Vitali. If Marciano wouldve challenged Liston in 1961, then you would have an argument.

I am not that impressed with the win over Vitali but it is a win. Watched a lot of Lewis's and Marciano's fights I find Marciano's career more impressive.

[Joeyzagz]

I am not that impressed with the win over Vitali but it is a win. Watched a lot of Lewis's and Marciano's fights I find Marciano's career more impressive.

I find Lennox's career more imppresive.

He had bigger, younger, and harder hitting opponents. Marciano fought geezers and bloated LHW's.

[Holtol]

I find Lennox's career more imppresive.

He had bigger, younger, and harder hitting opponents. Marciano fought geezers and bloated LHW's.

When people look back on Lennox Carreer. His biggest fights vs Vitali and Holyfield are not going to make them think he was one of the best ever.

[Joeyzagz]

When people look back on Lennox Carreer. His biggest fights vs Vitali and Holyfield are not going to make them think he was one of the best ever.

Half of Lennox's opponents have their own highlight reels on Youtube. You look up David Tua, Morrison, Tyson, or Klitschko, all devastaing ko artists in their own right and you realize that Lennox beat them all.

·Evander Holyfield
·Frank Bruno
·Hasim Rahman
·Henry Akinwande
·Mike Tyson
·Oliver McCall
·Ray Mercer
·Rid**** Bowe
·Shannon Briggs
·Tommy Morrison
·Tony Tucker
·Vitali Klitschko
·David Tua
·Andrew Golota
·Gary Mason
·Michael Grant

Marciano never fought anyone as big as the true heavyweights above. Who did Marciano beat that wasnt a bloated LHW or past prime?

[StarshipTrooper]

Half of Lennox's opponents have their own highlight reels on Youtube. You look up David Tua, Morrison, Tyson, or Klitschko, all devastaing ko artists in their own right and you realize that Lennox beat them all.

·Evander Holyfield
·Frank Bruno
·Hasim Rahman
·Henry Akinwande
·Mike Tyson
·Oliver McCall
·Ray Mercer
·Rid**** Bowe
·Shannon Briggs
·Tommy Morrison
·Tony Tucker
·Vitali Klitschko
·David Tua
·Andrew Golota
·Gary Mason
·Michael Grant

Marciano never fought anyone as big as the true heavyweights above. Who did Marciano beat that wasnt a bloated LHW or past prime?

So in the absence of quality opponents you fall back on "they're big"? :rolleyes9:

Poet