How Many Of You Rate, Louis Over Ali?

[Steak]

Louis beat far more top opponents than Ali did.

but Ali has wins over some of the best heavyweights ever...that definitely evens the score and then some.

so you can make a fair argument for Louis, although personally I would choose Ali.

[IRISH LULLABY]

Louis beat far more top opponents than Ali did.

This is incorrect; Ali fought 38 different fighters that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in their career and Louis fought 43 different fighters that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in their career. If we were to only count when the fighters were ranked in the Top 10 when Ali or Louis fought them, it would be in Ali's favour. Louis didn't defeat far more top fighters than Ali - considering how close their number of wins over top opponents is, now if we were to consider Ali's wins over Frazier, Liston & Foreman, the odds are stacked in Ali's favour.

[Steak]

This is incorrect; Ali fought 38 different fighters that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in their career and Louis fought 43 different fighters that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in their career. If we were to only count when the fighters were ranked in the Top 10 when Ali or Louis fought them, it would be in Ali's favour. Louis didn't defeat far more top fighters than Ali - considering how close their number of wins over top opponents is, now if we were to consider Ali's wins over Frazier, Liston & Foreman, the odds are stacked in Ali's favour.

It doesnt matter if they were rated before or after, it matters if they were rated top ten when Ali/Louis fought them. otherwise you have situations like an old, shot good fighter being mutilated by an up and coming prospect. Thats certainly not a top ten win.

These are Louis' wins over opponents that were top ten when he fought them

Lee Ramage #10
Patsy Perroni #6
Lee Ramage 2nd time #10
Natie Brown #8
Primo Carnera #2(former world champ)
King Levinsky #5
Max Baer #1 or 2(former World Champ)
Charlie Retzlaff #4
Jack Sharkey(Former World Champ)
Al Ettore #9
Bob Pastor #8
Jim Braddock #World Champ
Tommy Farr #2
Nathan Mann #3
Max Schmelling #1(former World Champ)
John Henry Lewis(LightHeavyweight Champ)
Tony Galento #4
Bob Pastor 2nd time #3
Arturo Godoy 2nd time #2
Abe Simon #4
Buddy Baer #6
Billy Conn(LightHeavyweight Champ)
Lou Nova #8
Buddy Baer 2nd time #7
Abe Simon 2nd time #5
Tami Mauriello #2
Jersey Joe Walcott #3(controversial(robbery win))
Jersey Joe Walcott 2nd time #1
Lee Savold not sure, top ten

[IRISH LULLABY]

It doesnt matter if they were rated before or after, it matters if they were rated top ten when Ali/Louis fought them. otherwise you have situations like an old, shot good fighter being mutilated by an up and coming prospect. Thats certainly not a top ten win.

These are Louis' wins over opponents that were top ten when he fought them

Lee Ramage #10
Patsy Perroni #6
Lee Ramage 2nd time #10
Natie Brown #8
Primo Carnera #2(former world champ)
King Levinsky #5
Max Baer #1 or 2(former World Champ)
Charlie Retzlaff #4
Jack Sharkey(Former World Champ)
Al Ettore #9
Bob Pastor #8
Jim Braddock #World Champ
Tommy Farr #2
Nathan Mann #3
Max Schmelling #1(former World Champ)
John Henry Lewis(LightHeavyweight Champ)
Tony Galento #4
Bob Pastor 2nd time #3
Arturo Godoy 2nd time #2
Abe Simon #4
Buddy Baer #6
Billy Conn(LightHeavyweight Champ)
Lou Nova #8
Buddy Baer 2nd time #7
Abe Simon 2nd time #5
Tami Mauriello #2
Jersey Joe Walcott #3(controversial(robbery win))
Jersey Joe Walcott 2nd time #1
Lee Savold not sure, top ten

The Bold; is fairly obvious and we can agree on that, so we can agree that Louis didn't defeat far more top opponents than Ali? Which is what you claimed.

Muhammad Ali

Alejandro Lavorante - No. 10
Archie Moore - No. 5
Doug Jones - No. 3
Henry Cooper - No. 9
Sonny Liston - World Heavyweight Champion
Sonny Liston - No. 1
Floyd Patterson - No. 1
George Chuvalo - No. 9
Henry Cooper - No. 4
Karl Mildenberger - No. 3
Cleveland Williams - No. 3
Ernie Terell - No. 1
Zora Folley - No. 2
Jerry Quarry - No. 1
Oscar Bonavena - No. 3
Joe Frazier - World Heavyweight Champion - LOSS
Jimmy Ellis - No. 7
Mac Foster - No. 6
Jerry Quarry - No.2
Floyd Patterson - No.3
Bob Foster - World Light-Heavyweight Champion
Joe Bugner - No. 8
Ken Norton - No. 9 - LOSS
Ken Norton - No. 2
Joe Frazier - No. 1
George Foreman - World Heavyweight Champion
Chuck Wepner - No. 9
Ron Lyle - No. 8
Joe Bugner - No. 4
Joe Frazier - No. 2
Jimmy Young - No. 3
Ken Norton - No. 2
Ernie Shavers - No. 5
Leon Spinks - No. 9 - LOSS
Leon Spinks - World Heavyweight Champion
Larry Holmes - Wolrd Heavyweight Champion - LOSS
Trevor Berbick - No.7 - LOSS

Overall Record vs Top 10 Rated Opponents (including Light-Heavyweight Champion): 32-5

Joe Louis

Lee Rampage - No. 10
Patsy Perroni - No. 6
Natie Brown - No. 10
Primo Carnera - No. 4
King Levinsky - No. 10
Max Baer - No. 1
Charley Retzlaff - No. 4
Max Schmeling - No. 2 - LOSS
Jack Sharkey - No. 4
Al Ettore - No. 3
James Braddock - World Champion
Tommy Farr - No. 3
Nathan Mann - No. 3
Max Schmeling - No. 1
John Henry Lewis - World Champion at Light-Heavyweight
Tony Galento - No. 3
Bob Pastor - No. 2
Johnny Paychek - No. 5
Arturo Godoy (2) - No. 1
Red Burman - No. 4
Buddy Baer - No. 5
Billy Conn - World Champion at Light-Heavyweight
Lou Nova - No. 1
Buddy Baer - No. 4
Abe Simon - No. 6
Billy Conn - No. 1
Tami Mauriello - No. 1
Jersey Joe Walcott - No. 1
Jersey Joe Walcott - No. 1
Ezzard Charles - World Champion - LOSS
Lee Savold - No. 4
Cesar Brion - No. 8
Rocky Marciano - No. 3 - LOSS

Overall record vs Top 10 Rated Opponents (including 2 light-heavyweight champs): 30-3


Based on these numbers, we can conclude that Joe Louis did NOT defeat far more top opponents than Ali.

[Steak]

these are Ali's

Archie Moore #9
Doug Jones #3
Henry Cooper #10
Sonny Liston Champ
Sonny Liston #1
Floyd Patterson #2
George Chuvalo #3
Brian London #10
Karl Mildenberger #5
Cleveland Wiliams ?
Ernie Terrel #1
Zora Folley #2
Jerry Quarry #3
Oscar Bonavena #7
Jimmy Ellis #6
Mac Foster #5
Jerry Quarry #2
Floyd Patterson #7
Bob Foster lightheavyweight champ
Joe Bugner #8
Norton #3
Joe Frazer #2
George Foreman Champion
Chuck Wepner #9
Ron Lyle #3
Joe Bugner #5
Joe Frazier #3
Jimmy young #3
Ken Norton #2 (controversial)
Ernie Shavers #6

turns out you were right. Ali actually has more top ten wins, although there might have been some robberies in there that he got.

Damn, did Ali fight the best or what?

[JAB5239]

Well, considering Conn's performance against Louis, there is no doubt he was able to hold his own at heavyweight, and then some, but defeating only two ranked heavyweights (Not sure where Pastor ranked before their 1940 fight, and not including his prior win to Gus in the lower divisions) and putting up a sterling effort against the champ is not exactly phenomenal work in the heavyweight division. Conn was a great light-heayweight.

I agree with what you're saying, but my point was only that he was as capable a fighter at heavyweight as anyone else in the division at that time. I don't think it tarnishes anything because his best work was down a division south of heavy. I think we would both agree the ATG's on almost any resume can be picked apart in one way or another.

[IRISH LULLABY]

I agree with what you're saying, but my point was only that he was as capable a fighter at heavyweight as anyone else in the division at that time. I don't think it tarnishes anything because his best work was down a division south of heavy. I think we would both agree the ATG's on almost any resume can be picked apart in one way or another.

I agree with you, in fact, I would be hard pressed to find a heavyweight during that period who could have given the Brown Bomber as much trouble as Billy Conn. It is a terrific win for Louis, but going back to my original point, sometimes the moniker of defeating a Hall of Famer can be sometimes exaggerated - and as you said, any fighters resume can be picked apart and I'm not going to do that to a legend like Louis.

[IRISH LULLABY]

turns out you were right. Ali actually has more top ten wins, although there might have been some robberies in there that he got.

Damn, did Ali fight the best or what?

Well, aside from a a few controversial decisions, given to both Ali & Louis, it's amazing to actually find out Ali did indeed defeat more top 10 ranked fighters (at the time they fought) than Louis. Beneath all the glitz and glamour of Ali's career, there is immense quality and a resume comparable to the likes of Robinson & Greb. I think this information may come as a surprise to some, who haven't researched it yet, partly because of Louis' record number of title defenses. Between his first loss and his win over Foreman, he went through a tear in the heavyweight Top 10 division, defeating 7 of the top dogs plus Bob Foster. A very, very, very awesome resume.

[IRISH LULLABY]

blackirish137, some of your numbers on the rankings are wrong - you have to indicate the opponents ranking on the last monthly rating before the fight, not the year end ranking.

[Steak]

blackirish137, some of your numbers on the rankings are wrong - you have to indicate the opponents ranking on the last monthly rating before the fight, not the year end ranking.

yea, I did it 'on the run'. Ill defer to yours, which seem much more accurate.


I always knew Ali fought a ton of top fighters, but it really puts it in perspective when you start thinking about who the tops guys were in his division at the time.
I would have to say that Ali has a much stronger case for being the #1 Heavyweight than Louis.

excellent research by the way, not too often will I come to a situation on this site where I will get enough hard evidence to change my mind about something.