Ducking beyond reasonable doubt

[JAB5239]

I disagree based on what can be seen with footage and documents. The only thing we know for certain is that Jack Johnson beat up Sam Langford when he did actually face him. He never had trouble with the little guys, no matter how powerful they were for their size. I'd see the much bigger Johnson tying him up at will and be too quick and strong for him.

Saying Johnson would beat Langford after he became a legit heavyweight contender because he beat him before is tantamount to saying Joe Choynski is a greater heavyweight than Johnson because he knocked him out when they fought. Your opinion on how the fight would play out is fine, but this is a quote from Johnson about Langford. "Im not gonna fight that little smoke, he's got a chance against anybody". How can that not be a duck when Langford had beaten every contender who would face him?

And since we're all on this Jack Johnson ducking people, Langford himself literally claimed he would face anybody in the world except for Jim Jeffries.

Difference is that when Jeff retired Langford was still fighting Gans, blackburn and other non heavies and there was absolutely no call for the fight.

[GJC]

I highly doubt Sam Langford was the best heavyweight in the world back when Jack Johnson held the title.

Always 2 questions with these kinds of things I.e. Should he have fought him and would he have won. I liken Langford-Johnson to Wills-Dempsey. Should he have fought him? For sure. Would Langford or Wills won? I don't think so.

[sonnyboyx2]

Always 2 questions with these kinds of things I.e. Should he have fought him and would he have won. I liken Langford-Johnson to Wills-Dempsey. Should he have fought him? For sure. Would Langford or Wills won? I don't think so.

GJC.. nice comments which i totally agree with, IMO Dempsey would have easily beaten Wills, i have some very good footage of Wills and he show's nothing to put the frighteners into Dempsey in terms of Skill etc. Langford was no doubt a brilliant fighter and was unfit when losing to Johnson yet i do not believe he could beat Johnson, Nat Fliescher said Johnson was the greatest fighter who ever lived and Fliescher also seen Langford fight.

[BKM-2010]

Saying Johnson would beat Langford after he became a legit heavyweight contender because he beat him before is tantamount to saying Joe Choynski is a greater heavyweight than Johnson because he knocked him out when they fought. Your opinion on how the fight would play out is fine, but this is a quote from Johnson about Langford. "Im not gonna fight that little smoke, he's got a chance against anybody". How can that not be a duck when Langford had beaten every contender who would face him?

Difference is that when Jeff retired Langford was still fighting Gans, blackburn and other non heavies and there was absolutely no call for the fight.

Johnson and Langford were both in their mid 20s and relatively in their prime. I disagree that you can compare your argument with Joe Choynski. Jack had such a big size disadvantage and he was so skilled that I can't see him not toying with Langford like he did to all the other fighters he towered over. I get the impression that Johnson was losing interest in boxing and was content on beating up on inferior white opponents.

I just can't imagine a man like Jack Johnson, probably the most hated fighter ever who had to have had the most heart/mental toughness to beat white fighters while everyone wanted him dead. For him to be scared to face Sam Langord is unlikely to me. If he did duck him it was probably not that.

Also, I'm interested to see the source of that quote from Johnson

[StarshipTrooper]

Once he won the title Johnson drew his own "color line" and was quoted as saying that there just wasn't any money to be made fighting other black fighters.

Poet

[BKM-2010]

Once he won the title Johnson drew his own "color line" and was quoted as saying that there just wasn't any money to be made fighting other black fighters.

Poet

That's what I believe as well.

[JAB5239]

That's what I believe as well.

And you would be wrong since huge paydays were guaranteed in both France and Australia. this can be confirmed in both the Langford biography and the book Unforgivable Blackness.

[NChristo]

Once he won the title Johnson drew his own "color line" and was quoted as saying that there just wasn't any money to be made fighting other black fighters.

Poet

He still fought Battling Jim Johnson though.

[StarshipTrooper]

And you would be wrong since huge paydays were guaranteed in both France and Australia. this can be confirmed in both the Langford biography and the book Unforgivable Blackness.

Whether it's a fact or not that the money was on the table is irrelivent: I'm simply quoting (or paraphrasing as it where) Johnson's stated position. I don't preclude the possibility that Johnson was just using it as an excuse to avoid tough contests.

Poet

[sonnyboyx2]

Once he won the title Johnson drew his own "color line" and was quoted as saying that there just wasn't any money to be made fighting other black fighters.

Poet

What you say is very true.. The reason Johnson did not want to fight black fighters is because the boxing fans at that time thought Black fighters fighting eachother was "FAKE" and that the fights was fixed because the fighters seemed to be just going through the motions and it was not like a real boxing match....in this link click View Full Article

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...D8415B838DF1D3

It is correct that Langford chased around after Johnson for more than 20yrs shouting for Johnson to fight him yet i do not believe that Johnson was afraid of Langford or afraid of losing to Langford... i believe it was something else