The Myth That Mike Tyson Was "Unbeatable In His Prime"

[Kid McCoy]

No fighter in history is/was unbeatable, least of all Tyson. Virtually everyone in the Hall of Fame was beaten in or near their prime, had tough fights with lesser opponents, and even the select few who kept their 0 had close calls.

Unfortunately, opinions of Tyson are always extreme. He's either the greatest ever or no better than a club fighter. Lewis, Bowe, Johnson, Dempsey, Klitschko, Langford, Foreman, Holyfield, Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Walcott, Corbett, Shavers and Louis were all beaten (and in many cases KO'd) by lesser fighters than Tyson, but of course he'd have no chance against them.

[Sugarj]

Alright now as everybody knows i am a HUGE iron mike tyson fan and pretty much got into boxing in the first place because of him.... but if there is one thing which annoys me is this that people say that mike tyson was "Unbeatable In His Prime"....this is a LIE!.

If history has taught us anything its that NOBODY is unbeatable in their prime/peak etc whether they trained etc or not or anyother excuse that people can come up with...

Even if Mike Tyson Still had cus and sticked with kevin and the rest of his camp and trained properly there would have ALWAYS been somebody out there somewhere who was carrying his number.....people can say what they want about the buster douglas fight as much as it upsets me what happened had happened and it doesnt matter whether it was douglas/holyfield or even lewis or someone else was going to eventually hand mike his first professional defeat.

Now here is the history part of where fighters in their "Prime/Peak" lost their undefeated record

Tyson/Douglas (Undertrained/No Headmovement etc and different coach etc even if he stuck with his old camp and trained eventually he would have lost

Ali/Frazier 1 (call it how you want it 3 years layoff from boxing affects anyone but like it or not ali was in his prime since he won the title twice after this fight and regained revenge over frazier)

Ali/Foreman (Foreman In His Prime Lost To Ali)

Fernando Vargas/Felix Trinidad (Yes fernando was 20-0-0 and still green but was in his Prime and was a world champion)

Joe Louis / Max Schmeling (Even the great Joe Louis Lost To Schmeling in his Prime Days untill he went on a long 12 Years HW Championship Reign and also regained revenge on schmeling)

Bernard Hopkins/Felix Trinidad (Felix Might Have Moved Up In Weight But Also Won The WBA MW Title and Was Undefeated/In His Prime)

Roy Jones Jr / Antonio Tarver II (Before The Jones Fans have a hissy fit YES he did lose alot of weight and muscle but the previous fight with tarver he regained the LHW Championship and Was Still in his Prime)

Julio Cesar Chavez/Frankie Randall I (Julio Obviously was not as determined/trained disciplined as he used to be but was in his prime since he regained his title in the rematch then had 5 title defences, you can argue that the whitaker fight was a robbery and should have been a defeat but that is a discussion for another thread but never the less both fights were in his prime)

So end of discussion NOBODY is unbeatable in their prime their is always someone out there who can beat you...heck i even bet that the great rocky marciano (RIP) would have probably lost if he continued fighting after the archie moore fight or even fighters like joe calzaghe,sven ottke,ricardo lopez would lose to somebody as well...you can argue that a determined tyson i.e. head movement/speed and full motivation is hard to beat but not "unbeatable"

ps tyson prime lasted from 1985 - 1997...obvs prison affected him mentally and maybe not the same movements but was still prime.

Everybody can have a bad day in the office. Boxing is rife with it. We're dealing with human beings who are under a great deal of pressure.

I dont like to use the phrase 'in his prime', although I'm as guilty as anyone! I'd prefer to say 'at his best'.

Tyson wasn't 'at his best' against Buster Douglas. That was pretty clear on many levels, physically and mentally. He was potentially a prime athlete affected by numerous other issues:

Poor preparation
medicated for veneareal disease
the breakup of his marriage
Low motivation (it has to be hard to get physically up for a 44:1 underdog!)

I disagree with the assertion that the best version of Tyson loses to that Buster Douglas. Douglas definitely deserved that win, he was superb, but he barely beat that count in round 8.......and it was a long count by the ref.

I dont want to be churlish or dig up an old grave, but if you You Tube the fight and clock the timer when the ref picks up the count at 'one' just look what the timer says when the ref is at 'nine'.....and Buster barely made that! With a different ref, that fight would have been a KO win for 'that' version of Tyson. A better version has to have a more favoured chance!

A few other fighters beaten when prime are:

Holyfield in his fight with Bowe 1. (Holy was terrific in defeat).

Shane Mosley in his fight with Vernon Forrest 1. (many had Shane pound for pound number 1 before that fight).

De La Hoya in his fight with Felix Trinidad.

[Sugarj]

But to add......'at Tyson's best' he was a very decent heavyweight. I think he would acquit himself well against any heavyweight in history over 12 rounds.

He would lose to some and beat others, but I dont think anyone would disgrace him 'at his best'.

[Scott9945]

But to add......'at Tyson's best' he was a very decent heavyweight. I think he would acquit himself well against any heavyweight in history over 12 rounds.

He would lose to some and beat others, but I dont think anyone would disgrace him 'at his best'.

That's a very reasonable summary. At the very least a prime Tyson would have been a threat to anyone ever. But there were some who I could never likely pick him to beat.

[Jim Jeffries]

I disagree that Louis was prime during the first Schmeling fight. At that point Joe still had some flaws in his game, namely dropping his left after throwing a jab, that Max was able to take advantage of. Likewise Foreman would go on to develop a better jab, patience and stamina in his comeback, and I think he missed out on his true prime during his decade absence from the sport.

No one is unbeatable and I think Liston, Foreman and Ali would have given Tyson fits. And I certainly wouldn't count out Holyfield either.

[check hook]

I was quoting Kevin Rooney.

And I believe Mike could have gone undefeated, personally.

I can't find the video interview, but it's out there, I saw it not too long ago.

Here is a quote from Rooney:

On Tyson: “The thing that bothers me is that the guy could have been the greatest heavyweight ever. After he beat Spinks, I started telling him we had to think about breaking Rocky’s record. Hell, he could have gone 100-0. I tried to say something to keep him interested, to keep him motivated. Because after he did what he did to Spinks, he was head and shoulders above everyone else. It wasn’t close. He easily could have gone 60-0, 70-0, with no problems. Don King ruined the guy. Since he left us, Mike has been on a fast track to hell, in terms of his boxing. I haven’t spoken to him for a long time, but I don’t hold any animosity toward him or hate him. I still care about him. But it makes me sick to think of all he threw away. I could throw up when I really think about it. It’s sad. It’s just sad.”

Yes. Rooney often laments what happened to Mike. He has every reason to be angry at Mike, yet all he really is, is dissapointed. I've seen an interview where he said the plan was to do a world tour type thing (fighting in Europe) and have about 10-15 more fights, finishing with Holyfield as the last fight, then retiring undefeated.

Rooney is critical of Tyson post jail everytime he is asked. In his words he became a puncher only, and dispensed with what Kevin and Cus always focused on, in speed and head movement. Rooney has always maintained a properly prepared Tyson would beat Holyfield and the rest. It's just his opinion, but i consider it an expert one.

[CarlosG815]

Yes. Rooney often laments what happened to Mike. He has every reason to be angry at Mike, yet all he really is, is dissapointed. I've seen an interview where he said the plan was to do a world tour type thing (fighting in Europe) and have about 10-15 more fights, finishing with Holyfield as the last fight, then retiring undefeated.

Rooney is critical of Tyson post jail everytime he is asked. In his words he became a puncher only, and dispensed with what Kevin and Cus always focused on, in speed and head movement. Rooney has always maintained a properly prepared Tyson would beat Holyfield and the rest. It's just his opinion, but i consider it an expert one.

Agreed. To me, his opinion holds a lot more water than some of the nay sayers on this forum. So many people are quick to scream "Nut hugger" when Rooney knows boxing better than anybody on this forum, and he speaks very highly of Tyson. Don't know if that's cause Tyson was his baby, but at this point in time, Kevin has nothing to gain by saying what he says, so I believe that he truly believes it.

[StarshipTrooper]

Agreed. To me, his opinion holds a lot more water than some of the nay sayers on this forum. So many people are quick to scream "Nut hugger" when Rooney knows boxing better than anybody on this forum, and he speaks very highly of Tyson. Don't know if that's cause Tyson was his baby, but at this point in time, Kevin has nothing to gain by saying what he says, so I believe that he truly believes it.

Rooney is being self-serving though because what he's always maintained that if Tyson had stuck with him then Mike would have been the GOAT.

Poet

[them_apples]

Alright now as everybody knows i am a HUGE iron mike tyson fan and pretty much got into boxing in the first place because of him.... but if there is one thing which annoys me is this that people say that mike tyson was "Unbeatable In His Prime"....this is a LIE!.

If history has taught us anything its that NOBODY is unbeatable in their prime/peak etc whether they trained etc or not or anyother excuse that people can come up with...

Even if Mike Tyson Still had cus and sticked with kevin and the rest of his camp and trained properly there would have ALWAYS been somebody out there somewhere who was carrying his number.....people can say what they want about the buster douglas fight as much as it upsets me what happened had happened and it doesnt matter whether it was douglas/holyfield or even lewis or someone else was going to eventually hand mike his first professional defeat.

Now here is the history part of where fighters in their "Prime/Peak" lost their undefeated record

Tyson/Douglas (Undertrained/No Headmovement etc and different coach etc even if he stuck with his old camp and trained eventually he would have lost

Ali/Frazier 1 (call it how you want it 3 years layoff from boxing affects anyone but like it or not ali was in his prime since he won the title twice after this fight and regained revenge over frazier)

Ali/Foreman (Foreman In His Prime Lost To Ali)

Fernando Vargas/Felix Trinidad (Yes fernando was 20-0-0 and still green but was in his Prime and was a world champion)

Joe Louis / Max Schmeling (Even the great Joe Louis Lost To Schmeling in his Prime Days untill he went on a long 12 Years HW Championship Reign and also regained revenge on schmeling)

Bernard Hopkins/Felix Trinidad (Felix Might Have Moved Up In Weight But Also Won The WBA MW Title and Was Undefeated/In His Prime)

Roy Jones Jr / Antonio Tarver II (Before The Jones Fans have a hissy fit YES he did lose alot of weight and muscle but the previous fight with tarver he regained the LHW Championship and Was Still in his Prime)

Julio Cesar Chavez/Frankie Randall I (Julio Obviously was not as determined/trained disciplined as he used to be but was in his prime since he regained his title in the rematch then had 5 title defences, you can argue that the whitaker fight was a robbery and should have been a defeat but that is a discussion for another thread but never the less both fights were in his prime)

So end of discussion NOBODY is unbeatable in their prime their is always someone out there who can beat you...heck i even bet that the great rocky marciano (RIP) would have probably lost if he continued fighting after the archie moore fight or even fighters like joe calzaghe,sven ottke,ricardo lopez would lose to somebody as well...you can argue that a determined tyson i.e. head movement/speed and full motivation is hard to beat but not "unbeatable"

ps tyson prime lasted from 1985 - 1997...obvs prison affected him mentally and maybe not the same movements but was still prime.

He wasn't unbeatable it just took a top notch ATG fighter to take him out.

Foreman and Ali are what come to mind, and maybe even Holy, prime for prime. Holyfields game plan was great, he put on some muscle so he could stay in the pocket with Mike...and we all know what Tyson does in the pocket, he just holds on!

[CarlosG815]

Rooney is being self-serving though because what he's always maintained that if Tyson had stuck with him then Mike would have been the GOAT.

Poet

And when watching Mike with Rooney and Mike post Rooney there is a clear divide as to who the better fighter was. Mike was night and day a much better fighter with Rooney. It's very probable that he'd have gone undefeated had he stuck with Rooney.

The Tyson that fought Bruno was garbage. Rooney-Tyson would have taken him out within 3 rounds but he looked like crap and it took Bruno wearing himself out to allow Mike to land some big shots and force a stoppage. That's how bad he was in his first comeback fight.

Who in the hell was going to beat him on the night he fought Spinks? Not Holyfield, Bowe, Buster, or anybody else, IMO.