Who would be in the top 10 in a small ring.

[Spartacus Sully]

Of course my freind but even then Rocky's knock down up close and personal does not comparte to them ...Louis knocked out guys with his left hook...its just not any left hook that one. Deal with this , even with their "flawed" right or whatever they had more knockdowns up close than the Rock. What you say about Louis right however is entirely yours theory for which you will have few knowledgeable subscribers...If I am not mistaking you gravely...Thanks for your time

i said nothing about any ones right.

straight punches and jabs.

its all about distance. for a punch to do its most damage it needs to be go all the way out there. louis was the master of distance and his straight lefts straight rights over hand rights and jabs needed distance while his hooks were very tight. marciano had shorter arms so his distance was less.

he also threw his straights diffrently, most straights are throw as one motion bringing the elbow out and rotating the arm with the punch. marciano ould make it two motions first brining the elbow out and up holding the fore arm and bicep at a 90 degree angle and then throwing the punch. some times you will see him timing a punch and aiming with his elbows up and out. that his elbows are allready up and out the punch is slightly quicker and given the starting position of when the punch is actually thrown (with the elbow up and out) more of his back more mass is put into the punch resulting in more pushing force.

all these factors and marcianos indiffrence to whether the ring is big or small will be a very large disadvantage to any one coming into that ring with out the physical strength to push the rock back especially once your against the ropes.

plus while louis might have more close up kd's id say the rock had more against the rope kd's and in a 5*5 ring against marciano a 200 lb louis is going to be against the ropes.

[Miburo]

No mentions of Arguello or Toney? They'd just stand right in front of opponents and counter them all day, they'd have nowhere to run.

[Greatest1942]

i said nothing about any ones right.

straight punches and jabs.

its all about distance. for a punch to do its most damage it needs to be go all the way out there. louis was the master of distance and his straight lefts straight rights over hand rights and jabs needed distance while his hooks were very tight. marciano had shorter arms so his distance was less.

he also threw his straights diffrently, most straights are throw as one motion bringing the elbow out and rotating the arm with the punch. marciano ould make it two motions first brining the elbow out and up holding the fore arm and bicep at a 90 degree angle and then throwing the punch. some times you will see him timing a punch and aiming with his elbows up and out. that his elbows are allready up and out the punch is slightly quicker and given the starting position of when the punch is actually thrown (with the elbow up and out) more of his back more mass is put into the punch resulting in more pushing force.

all these factors and marcianos indiffrence to whether the ring is big or small will be a very large disadvantage to any one coming into that ring with out the physical strength to push the rock back especially once your against the ropes.

plus while louis might have more close up kd's id say the rock had more against the rope kd's and in a 5*5 ring against marciano a 200 lb louis is going to be against the ropes.

Good post my friend, and thanks for replying but...

"holding the fore arm and bicep at a 90 degree angle and then throwing the punch. " Yes Marciano did this but most of the time he threw the clubbing right hand that was very different than the one you described and was very slow,as I said the Rock could do this, but it was very very less and most of the times it was a clubbing blow...Also when you use two motions ultimately you are wasting a motion...a fast punch with two motionsis going to be beaten by a fast punch with one motion it is a fact.

Sorry you underestimate LOuis's strength I have seen Louis against Buudy Baer, Max Baer, Abe Simons, Primo Carnera and they were all very strong men, stronger than Rocky and had a considerable size advantage. Buudy baer, Carnera and Simons outweigh Rocky by 50 pounds least and I am sorry although the Rock might be P4P stronger overall these guys beat him in strength.. LOuis in the clinches handled these guys fine...and I am sorry I see no reason he will not Rocky...

Rocky was good against the ropes, but upclose he will find it very hard to get by Louis's left hook...I believe up close Louis's left hook will be the one he will use and given the combinations he could us stich together with it, I dont see the Rock getting by it...And you must know Jab is a distance punch so lets leave it...BUt Louis when he needed to , threw very short rights..watch the KO of Walcott and watch the first right to the temple thats sets up the whole combo..It was as short as a right punch can be...Watch him against Buddy Baer 1 and see that he does throw tight short rights...

By the by the man in your pic might do fine too!!!!

[#1Assassin]

No mentions of Arguello or Toney? They'd just stand right in front of opponents and counter them all day, they'd have nowhere to run.

great post. qawi aswell, that dude was a tank with great headmovement, brutal power and huge heart. his only real flaw was his slow feet. in a 5x5 ring he would be a monster.

rubin "hurricane" carter too, great chin, high punch output and nasty power.

mccallum deserves a mention too, he was one of the best inside fighters ever. great headmovement, timing, chin, accurate short punches, great bodypuncher, great stamina and heart. he could stay in teh pocket with the best of them

[Spartacus Sully]

Good post my friend, and thanks for replying but...

"holding the fore arm and bicep at a 90 degree angle and then throwing the punch. " Yes Marciano did this but most of the time he threw the clubbing right hand that was very different than the one you described and was very slow,as I said the Rock could do this, but it was very very less and most of the times it was a clubbing blow...Also when you use two motions ultimately you are wasting a motion...a fast punch with two motionsis going to be beaten by a fast punch with one motion it is a fact.

he did throw clubbing punches but the one to take down walcot was definatly not a clubbing punch and it was definatly one as i described.

eh 1 motion can be fast but 2 motions can atleast match the speed. hold your hand up and stick out your pointer finger as fast as you can. now use your thumb to stop your finger for just a moment as your trying to stick it out as fast as you can. so when did your pointer finger go out faster? when you made one motion or when you stoped it for a second and then stuck it out with a flick? this punch works in the same manner sending momentum out to your side to stop all the momentum going forward for a second and build it up before its transfered into the forearm.

when he aims the punch more often then not it tends to be a clubbing punch but he throws all his straight punches in the way and his straight punches like what took out walcott were plenty fast.

Sorry you underestimate LOuis's strength I have seen Louis against Buudy Baer, Max Baer, Abe Simons, Primo Carnera and they were all very strong men, stronger than Rocky and had a considerable size advantage. Buudy baer, Carnera and Simons outweigh Rocky by 50 pounds least and I am sorry although the Rock might be P4P stronger overall these guys beat him in strength.. LOuis in the clinches handled these guys fine...and I am sorry I see no reason he will not Rocky...

sorry you seem to be over estimating these guys lower body strength and stamina in porportion to their size (cept maybe max) as well as these guys had a longer reach then louis meaning that louis's ideal distance was inside the reach of these guys where as louis's idea distance with marciano would be out side his reach, which will be much harder to obtain in a 5*5 ring.

Rocky was good against the ropes, but upclose he will find it very hard to get by Louis's left hook...I believe up close Louis's left hook will be the one he will use and given the combinations he could us stich together with it, I dont see the Rock getting by it...And you must know Jab is a distance punch so lets leave it...BUt Louis when he needed to , threw very short rights..watch the KO of Walcott and watch the first right to the temple thats sets up the whole combo..It was as short as a right punch can be...Watch him against Buddy Baer 1 and see that he does throw tight short rights...

By the by the man in your pic might do fine too!!!!

nah rockys entire stance is made to deal with left hooks no problem. the tucked chin and crouch with the stalking step on top of marcianos superb ability to bob and weave he would have no pro*** with louis left though he might have a sore left shoulder after the fight.

and short rights are something any one can throw as they arnt something that needs to be thrown its more so something you hold up (as the close to the body the weight is the mor leverage you have over it) and hope the opponet runs into as you push it forward the moment he does. marciano can throw short rights just as well as louis or jeffries or fitzsimmons (who probly knocked more men out with his 6 inch short right hand counter then any other punch he used). i dont really see either fighter gaining an glarring advantage because of their 6 inch short right counter.

[Greatest1942]

he did throw clubbing punches but the one to take down walcot was definatly not a clubbing punch and it was definatly one as i described.

eh 1 motion can be fast but 2 motions can atleast match the speed. hold your hand up and stick out your pointer finger as fast as you can. now use your thumb to stop your finger for just a moment as your trying to stick it out as fast as you can. so when did your pointer finger go out faster? when you made one motion or when you stoped it for a second and then stuck it out with a flick? this punch works in the same manner sending momentum out to your side to stop all the momentum going forward for a second and build it up before its transfered into the forearm.

when he aims the punch more often then not it tends to be a clubbing punch but he throws all his straight punches in the way and his straight punches like what took out walcott were plenty fast.



sorry you seem to be over estimating these guys lower body strength and stamina in porportion to their size (cept maybe max) as well as these guys had a longer reach then louis meaning that louis's ideal distance was inside the reach of these guys where as louis's idea distance with marciano would be out side his reach, which will be much harder to obtain in a 5*5 ring.



nah rockys entire stance is made to deal with left hooks no problem. the tucked chin and crouch with the stalking step on top of marcianos superb ability to bob and weave he would have no pro*** with louis left though he might have a sore left shoulder after the fight.

and short rights are something any one can throw as they arnt something that needs to be thrown its more so something you hold up (as the close to the body the weight is the mor leverage you have over it) and hope the opponet runs into as you push it forward the moment he does. marciano can throw short rights just as well as louis or jeffries or fitzsimmons (who probly knocked more men out with his 6 inch short right hand counter then any other punch he used). i dont really see either fighter gaining an glarring advantage because of their 6 inch short right counter.

No fingers are punches are very different my freind. A one arm swift motion is faster than a breaked motion. Try explaining this to any boxing coach and he will tell you that while there might be exceptions in general a one swift motion punch will beat a delayed punch. If you really think otherwise consult some one like Ron Lipton or Roach.

Besides you keep repeating that one punch against Walcott...I keep saying while that punch was great the Rock never punched generally like that. From what I have seen that was a rarety mostly he swung in a big arc and his punches were clubbing type. Against Ezzard Charles,against Joe Louis himself, against walcott prior committing to that punch (13th round by the way), against Moore he swung like that...You are asking him to throw a punch everytime that Rocky himself never threw much...Are you asking me to take one punch vs his natural punching stats..sorry I dont see Marciano a short puncher.He occasionally punched like that but in general he was not a precise or short puncher...films and a lot of critiques will agree with my statement here.

The Rock was not immune to left hook...theoratically as you put it yes...NOt practically , he got hit by left hooks and he got hit by them clean...Walcott's punch was a left hook-uppercut sort of punch. And I remember atleast three occasions where Rocky got cloaked with the left hooks against Joe Walcott alone. No one could ever be invulnerable against a particular punch, when you are attacking you are suspect to getting caught with the left hook and Marciano was no exception..Sorry. And as I said Louis was afar better puncher than Rocky

Besides I repeat that again Marciano never had good handspeed compared to LOuis or Dempsey, they had excellent handspeed, Louis handspeed with all his power approached that of Ali and Rock was much slower than Louis in handspeed...miles apart infact...This is a fact borne out by films and is rather hard to argue against.

And lastly you believe Rock had a great lower body strength, and you ask me to accept he was stronger than PRimo Carnera there? NO sir I didn't overestimate them. Carnera did strong man work and to do that you have to have great lower body strength just not upper body. He was as strong as a man can be. Max Baer was supremely strong too. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were both naturally strong men, and I have no indication that they were weak in lower body too. As I said overall they were not bloated up heavies but big men with very big bone structure and stronger than the Rock. Louis did not fight inside with Simon watch teh match. Carnera had him in Clinch a lot.Watch that too. Louis was strong..and you overestimate Rock's strength by an unhealthy degree if you suggest he was Stronger than Carnera in lower body. Whereever Louis was inside or outside he could hurt you...He fought mainly from the outside with Simon and watch him vs Max he hurt him from both places. He hurt Schemlling when he was inside.You say shorter punches doest matter, but inside it does matter for inside as I stated earlier Louis was a more devastating puncher, had more knock downs and unliek Rocky he did not need to get inside to hurt anyone. If you say shortter, quciker more accurate punching doesn't count in the inside sorry...Its non arguable...Nothing counts then


On a note I respect Fitz but he would have bulled around too much to make a difference. BUt as a puncher? I think he was wonderful #3 in my list.

Thanks for the debate...I have to agree to disagree with you. No point arguing..you have your convictions me mine.

[boxing boy]

Could Muhammad Ali do the Rope-a-Dope and stop some of these fighters late in the fight after they have punched themselves out?

I know none of them could KO Ali,but could Ali stop them late in the fight?

[Holtol]

Could Muhammad Ali do the Rope-a-Dope and stop some of these fighters late in the fight after they have punched themselves out?

I know none of them could KO Ali,but could Ali stop them late in the fight?

He might do well against many boxer's. But going against the greatest all time fighting in close I don't think he would be top 10. Without being able to use his legs or boxing at range he might have problems with quite a few boxers.

[boxing boy]

He might do well against many boxer's. But going against the greatest all time fighting in close I don't think he would be top 10. Without being able to use his legs or boxing at range he might have problems with quite a few boxers.

But what against fighters who had "punched themselves out" from Ali's rope-a-dope?

Muhammad Ali took the best punch of any Heavyweight Champion.So we know he wouldn't get KO'd.But could he stop alot of tired and punched out fighters?

[Holtol]

But what against fighters who had "punched themselves out" from Ali's rope-a-dope?

Muhammad Ali took the best punch of any Heavyweight Champion.So we know he wouldn't get KO'd.But could he stop alot of tired and punched out fighters?

A good chin would be even more important, and Ali had one of the best chin's ever. His fighting on the ropes would work against some fighters. I am still working on my top 10 list, but as of now I would not have Ali on it.