Who would be in the top 10 in a small ring.

[Greatest1942]

I also believe short powerful punches would be key. Also a high level of skill fighting in the pocket.

I have not seen enough footage or read enough about Jack Dempsey but If his reputation is accuret then maybe I agree with you on your top pick. I also had Joe Louis rated high.

I may have George Foerman and Rid**** Bowe rated to high. I am not to sure how many of the best in a small ring would be taller heavyweights. Middle weights would have some advantages I think.

Don't misunderstand me but in a short Ring George Foreman will be worse off than Rid**** Bowe. George was never a great infighter and in a small ring you will have to do good amount of that...Bowe will stand a better chance as he was a great infighter. George liked to have some range to land his most telling blows...though his uppercuts in close were phenomenal...If I really have to choose a third it will be Sam Langford great short puncher, and good enough to flatten most big heavy's with one blow...Dempsey and Louis also I believe are the best in terms of knocking out guys cold in a small range. Look at Joe Louis left hook and honestly tell me do you see Rocky or even Tyson generating more power with such short arm swing,coupled with Louis's deadly accuracy and power its irrestible. Joe Louis right hand was also shorter,quicker than Rocky or Tyson with comparable power. Short,powerful,quick and accuracy ina 5x5 ring you can't beat that.

Read the following :-

“Of the many films I have, Louis and Dempsey scored the most knockdowns or knockouts from very close to two feet or less. Jack’s percentage is about 30, and Joe’s 20. None of the others even get close to those percentages. The set-up shots by Louis and Dempsey were sometimes even shorter – classic six-inch punches. These were the two aces who could punch short or long and get you from any distance.

“There have been many other great punchers of course. Marciano got tremendous leverage on his shots, but only Louis and Dempsey could knock out the toughest men with a blow from two feet or less.”
Mike Hunnicut.

[Holtol]

Don't misunderstand me but in a short Ring George Foreman will be worse off than Rid**** Bowe. George was never a great infighter and in a small ring you will have to do good amount of that...Bowe will stand a better chance as he was a great infighter. George liked to have some range to land his most telling blows...though his uppercuts in close were phenomenal...If I really have to choose a third it will be Sam Langford great short puncher, and good enough to flatten most big heavy's with one blow...Dempsey and Louis also I believe are the best in terms of knocking out guys cold in a small range. Look at Joe Louis left hook and honestly tell me do you see Rocky or even Tyson generating more power with such short arm swing,coupled with Louis's deadly accuracy and power its irrestible. Joe Louis right hand was also shorter,quicker than Rocky or Tyson with comparable power. Short,powerful,quick and accuracy ina 5x5 ring you can't beat that.

Read the following :-

“Of the many films I have, Louis and Dempsey scored the most knockdowns or knockouts from very close to two feet or less. Jack’s percentage is about 30, and Joe’s 20. None of the others even get close to those percentages. The set-up shots by Louis and Dempsey were sometimes even shorter – classic six-inch punches. These were the two aces who could punch short or long and get you from any distance.

“There have been many other great punchers of course. Marciano got tremendous leverage on his shots, but only Louis and Dempsey could knock out the toughest men with a blow from two feet or less.”
Mike Hunnicut.

I have Bowe ahead of Foreman on the List. But now I wonder if Foreman would be very close to top 10 at all. And I am not so sure of Bowe being on the top 10 either. Its true Foreman was not a very good inside fighter. And was not that good at avoiding punches.

I have seen more of Louis then Dempsey. His punches could be very short and hard I have watched his highlight ko's. You may be right in a small ring when it comes to inflicting damage Louis would be hard to surpass. He may have had problems with the punches thrown at him. Do you think he could avoid Marciano's or Frazier's punches in close? Or could Louis just plain knock them out first?

Sam Langford was fairly small but that may just be an advantage when you can't fight on the outside. So I should consider him also.

[Greatest1942]

I have Bowe ahead of Foreman on the List. But now I wonder if Foreman would be very close to top 10 at all. And I am not so sure of Bowe being on the top 10 either. Its true Foreman was not a very good inside fighter. And was not that good at avoiding punches.

I have seen more of Louis then Dempsey. His punches could be very short and hard I have watched his highlight ko's. You may be right in a small ring when it comes to inflicting damage Louis would be hard to surpass. He may have had problems with the punches thrown at him. Do you think he could avoid Marciano's or Frazier's punches in close? Or could Louis just plain knock them out first?

Sam Langford was fairly small but that may just be an advantage when you can't fight on the outside. So I should consider him also.

My friend I am a firm believer that in a short ring, a boxer with the faster quicker hands, will deliver first...So no matter how hard the other guys hit his will never reach...Anyways contrary to the revisionist crap dished ever now and then Louis had a solid chin (not Great but solid)..Look at Max Baer one of the best hitters in ring history(#22 in Rings best punchers list so #7 or #8 best punching heavy in history) , landed his rights on Louis chin a number of times , Louis took it okay.Louis got knocked out twice and after getting beaten over the course of a fight not suddenly with one powershot like Lewis. Most of his knock downs were of the flash knock down variety and he would immediately get up and take control. Except Scmelling,Marciano and Conn 12th I have never seen him in much trouble)...Gods sake even Chuvalo got knocked out(TKO). Louis's chin was not Ali or Chuvalo but it was solid. You couldnot knock him out with a single blow...If Marciano and Louis both start their blow...A prime Louis (The version which decimated the two Baers or Arthuro Godoy one) is going to beat him to the punch nine out of ten times. Marciano was a tremendous punchers but he was never as quick and accurate as Louis and in a short ring Louis will cloak him too much too often for even the Rock to stand.Mind you I am big fan of Frazier left hook, but this isn't a normal fighting ring so here it goes . Frazier had a dynamite left hook, but my freind please read the following :-
"Joe Louis in his manual, "How To Box". The left hook is one of the most difficult blows to learn and use properly. The hook is used as a countering blow and a finishing blow. The shorter this blow, the better it's effect. The hook is used best against a left jab or a straight right as a counter. The right arm should be crooked with the elbow directly down in front of the ribs...relaxed...the head should have no singluar action of it's own; it works along with the body, chin pinned down."

Frazier in his manual how to box:- " that the left hook is the hardest punch to learn how to throw properly (though it was easy for me). To throw a left hook properly, you have to be positioned correctly. A lot of trainers teach you you have to be close to throw a left hook; not true. The hook I dropped the Butterfly with was a long hook. I stopped guys with my long hook."


See the difference in approach? Louis preferred shorter faster blows to Fraziers longer hook. I wont make any comparison with the right hand. Louis had one of the best right hands in ring history, Fraziers right hand , though never the push over it is made to be, never had that power nor speed. Louis was the #1 puncher in rings list of best punchers with Frazier coming in at #39...Louis had better hand speed (and I can tell you its not even close) , better two fisted KO power and far more accuracy.
And about body attacks, Frazier was good even Great but he doesn't match Louis for his destructive ability (Frazier albeit went more to the body and with more determination where as Louis mixed it up)...You never take away two vertebraes of a human body without being a special puncher.
Watch Louis-Braddock, Louis-Savold one perfectly placed dynamite right and its over...So in summary long hook,short hook...Comparatively same power, dynamite right and average right. Short ring...My friend I think I made it clear enough...

Lanford was small but had good reach...He had longish arms...Note HarrY Willis comment on his power

“Two years later,” continued Wills, “we were scheduled for another twenty rounder. In the eighteenth Sam was in a peck of trouble and once again I tried to set him up for a quick knockout. He finished the round okay and when the bell sounded for the start of the nineteenth I was after him again. I figured if I could get him in a corner I could finish the fight. That was all I could remember. He must have caught me as I rushed in." The Feb 13, 1916 New Orleans Times-Picayune said it was "Langford's mighty left hook." Wills stated, "I don't know how long I was unconscious but it must have been quite a while. He was marvelous as a fighting man, I'd venture to say unbeatable in his prime."

P.S:-My friend if you watch Joe LOuis you will see that he was a pretty good defensive fighter, he could Jab very well one of the all time best that jab, had good reflexes and was very good at blocking and parryin blows...And he was all action and no flash..watch him stow away Braddocks hand as he delivers that crushing right

[Holtol]

My friend I am a firm believer that in a short ring, a boxer with the faster quicker hands, will deliver first...So no matter how hard the other guys hit his will never reach...Anyways contrary to the revisionist crap dished ever now and then Louis had a solid chin (not Great but solid)..Look at Max Baer one of the best hitters in ring history(#22 in Rings best punchers list so #7 or #8 best punching heavy in history) , landed his rights on Louis chin a number of times , Louis took it okay.Louis got knocked out twice and after getting beaten over the course of a fight not suddenly with one powershot like Lewis. Most of his knock downs were of the flash knock down variety and he would immediately get up and take control. Except Scmelling,Marciano and Conn 12th I have never seen him in much trouble)...Gods sake even Chuvalo got knocked out(TKO). Louis's chin was not Ali or Chuvalo but it was solid. You couldnot knock him out with a single blow...If Marciano and Louis both start their blow...A prime Louis (The version which decimated the two Baers or Arthuro Godoy one) is going to beat him to the punch nine out of ten times. Marciano was a tremendous punchers but he was never as quick and accurate as Louis and in a short ring Louis will cloak him too much too often for even the Rock to stand.Mind you I am big fan of Frazier left hook, but this isn't a normal fighting ring so here it goes . Frazier had a dynamite left hook, but my freind please read the following :-
"Joe Louis in his manual, "How To Box". The left hook is one of the most difficult blows to learn and use properly. The hook is used as a countering blow and a finishing blow. The shorter this blow, the better it's effect. The hook is used best against a left jab or a straight right as a counter. The right arm should be crooked with the elbow directly down in front of the ribs...relaxed...the head should have no singluar action of it's own; it works along with the body, chin pinned down."

Frazier in his manual how to box:- " that the left hook is the hardest punch to learn how to throw properly (though it was easy for me). To throw a left hook properly, you have to be positioned correctly. A lot of trainers teach you you have to be close to throw a left hook; not true. The hook I dropped the Butterfly with was a long hook. I stopped guys with my long hook."


See the difference in approach? Louis preferred shorter faster blows to Fraziers longer hook. I wont make any comparison with the right hand. Louis had one of the best right hands in ring history, Fraziers right hand , though never the push over it is made to be, never had that power nor speed. Louis was the #1 puncher in rings list of best punchers with Frazier coming in at #39...Louis had better hand speed (and I can tell you its not even close) , better two fisted KO power and far more accuracy.
And about body attacks, Frazier was good even Great but he doesn't match Louis for his destructive ability (Frazier albeit went more to the body and with more determination where as Louis mixed it up)...You never take away two vertebraes of a human body without being a special puncher.
Watch Louis-Braddock, Louis-Savold one perfectly placed dynamite right and its over...So in summary long hook,short hook...Comparatively same power, dynamite right and average right. Short ring...My friend I think I made it clear enough...

Lanford was small but had good reach...He had longish arms...Note HarrY Willis comment on his power

“Two years later,” continued Wills, “we were scheduled for another twenty rounder. In the eighteenth Sam was in a peck of trouble and once again I tried to set him up for a quick knockout. He finished the round okay and when the bell sounded for the start of the nineteenth I was after him again. I figured if I could get him in a corner I could finish the fight. That was all I could remember. He must have caught me as I rushed in." The Feb 13, 1916 New Orleans Times-Picayune said it was "Langford's mighty left hook." Wills stated, "I don't know how long I was unconscious but it must have been quite a while. He was marvelous as a fighting man, I'd venture to say unbeatable in his prime."

P.S:-My friend if you watch Joe LOuis you will see that he was a pretty good defensive fighter, he could Jab very well one of the all time best that jab, had good reflexes and was very good at blocking and parryin blows...And he was all action and no flash..watch him stow away Braddocks hand as he delivers that crushing right

You make a strong case for Louis being higher on the list then I placed him. I placed him at number 7. You could be right at closer to number 2 or even 1.

I have not really seen any of Langford's fights. He is a little bigger then I thought was just looking him up he was 185 pounds. And at 5'6 he may have the prototypical body in a small ring.

If I make another list I might move Dempsey and Louis to a different point in the list. And maybe add Langford somewhere also, He could maybe beat some of the taller bigger fighters.

[Spartacus Sully]

If Marciano and Louis both start their blow...A prime Louis (The version which decimated the two Baers or Arthuro Godoy one) is going to beat him to the punch nine out of ten times. Marciano was a tremendous punchers but he was never as quick and accurate as Louis and in a short ring Louis will cloak him too much too often for even the Rock to stand.

Marciano beat walcott to the punch, i think he could beat louis to the punch much more then only 1 out of 10 times.

marciano even fainted first and still beat walcott to the punch.

[Suckmedry]

A 5x5 ring? That's a phonebooth. Armstrong would have thrived even more than he did in real life. Fenech as well. Basically you are looking at the guys who fight on the inside well, and who like to give some rough stuff out. a lot more dirty tricks would get pulled. The ref would have to stand outside the ring! There wouldn't be enough room.

[Greatest1942]

Marciano beat walcott to the punch, i think he could beat louis to the punch much more then only 1 out of 10 times.

marciano even fainted first and still beat walcott to the punch.

yes Marciano beat Walcott to the punch...correct and may be out of ten he will do it more often against Louis than I was saying but two points :-

1)It was the 13th round where he did beat Walcott, to the punch...SO may be it was the one out of ten I was referring to

2)Marciano had much lesser handspeed than Louis...
Just because he beat Joe Walcott to the punch once in the 13th round you mean to say that he will beat Louis to the punch? Personally I believe Louis at his prime has faster hands than Walcott. Films prove it too...and personally i believe if Louis teed off on Marciano like Walcott did he won't last past 10th.
To reiterate walcott was never ever the puncher Louis was at his prime, not even close. But yes Marciano might beat Louis to the punch more often than I put it...BUt I still see Louis's shorter accurate punching decimating the Rock.No one except Jack Dempsey was better with short punches than Louis and up close it will be a great asset.

P.S :- I believe that in a short ring or phone booth fights wont go past 5 rounds(max). Rock was generallya very slow starter and I believe he would have been in serious danger against dempsey who was avery fast starter and Louis who when motivated started as fast as anybody. I do give Rock the chance but I agree with MIke that his short punches were not like Louis or Demps. He was a tremendous puncher and sometimes did throw some short fast ones just not as accurately and consistently like Joe or Jack.

[Spartacus Sully]

yes Marciano beat Walcott to the punch...correct and may be out of ten he will do it more often against Louis than I was saying but two points :-

1)It was the 13th round where he did beat Walcott, to the punch...SO may be it was the one out of ten I was referring to

2)Marciano had much lesser handspeed than Louis...
Just because he beat Joe Walcott to the punch once in the 13th round you mean to say that he will beat Louis to the punch? Personally I believe Louis at his prime has faster hands than Walcott. Films prove it too...and personally i believe if Louis teed off on Marciano like Walcott did he won't last past 10th.
To reiterate walcott was never ever the puncher Louis was at his prime, not even close. But yes Marciano might beat Louis to the punch more often than I put it...BUt I still see Louis's shorter accurate punching decimating the Rock.No one except Jack Dempsey was better with short punches than Louis and up close it will be a great asset.

really neither of them were good with straight short punches only their hooks were tight. their jabs and straights were as long as their arms as they needed to be for their most powerful wepon to do its damage, distance.

marciano threw much wider longer (faster top speed) hooks but his straight punches like what he used against walcott were just as fast as dempsesys and louis straight blows if not faster in that he set them up by bringing his arm up and out to the side in that of a 90 degree angle and he threw straight punches much diffrently. as well being faster in that he had a shorter reach and less distance to go to maxmize power.

[Greatest1942]

really neither of them were good with straight short punches only their hooks were tight. their jabs and straights were as long as their arms as they needed to be for their most powerful wepon to do its damage, distance.

marciano threw much wider longer (faster top speed) hooks but his straight punches like what he used against walcott were just as fast as dempsesys and louis straight blows if not faster in that he set them up by bringing his arm up and out to the side in that of a 90 degree angle and he threw straight punches much diffrently. as well being faster in that he had a shorter reach and less distance to go to maxmize power.

My friend Louis had a shorter and faster right and the Rock...leave aside the left hook...and anyways I believe in a short ring Louis will use his left hook in a good affect against the Rock..IT was a countering weapon and Louis could use it to counter Rocky.

Whatever way you put it Louis and Dempsey had far better hand speed. Marciano was never the greatest with his hand speeds and he is never ever rated in the top bracket while Louis consistently is. Louis was not good with his straight right??????? You can say that about Dempsey , but Louis had the straightest right possible..Watch the right hand against Braddock what do you see non straight about it? Joe Louis's bread and butter lay in his deadly accuracy and combinations. Rocky I am sorry was never a better puncher than Joe LOuis. Joe Louis hand speed was greater than Rock, he was almost as fast as Ali and Rock was slower than Liston...Rocky mighthave had more power in his right than Joe but speed and accuracy are things that go to Joe by a wide margin. And while you can give only one example of Rocky's right I can give you at least ten where Louis right hand was fast and too straight for his opponents to survive.

Joe Louis, more than any other heavyweight, was the perfect textbook ko puncher, bar none.If you say he didn't deliver the right correctly you may notify that to the hundreds of people who believe that he was perfection personified. Louis was a far better technician to not do this..See his hightlight reels and watch how many knockdowns his right hand gets him...Rocky's right against walcott was great the best right ever but sorry he never delivered that kind of right with any consistency or you will be telling me of other examples too...most were of the clubbing variety. From the films I see that only once Rocky knocked out someone with that kind of right...Also as I stated earlier he was a slow starter and I will always see him in trouble against extremely fast starters like Jack or Mike Tyson or LOuis when fully charged...He does better against people like Ali or Holmes. To my mind Rock would have got beaten by Jack and Louis , they had too many tools for him.

When he sent Joe through the ropes,dropped Archie beat Laztraza it was the huge clubbing right that came to the fore...See Louis and you will always see a straight fast right...Sorry I have to agree to disagree with you here.

[Greatest1942]

really neither of them were good with straight short punches only their hooks were tight. their jabs and straights were as long as their arms as they needed to be for their most powerful wepon to do its damage, distance.

marciano threw much wider longer (faster top speed) hooks but his straight punches like what he used against walcott were just as fast as dempsesys and louis straight blows if not faster in that he set them up by bringing his arm up and out to the side in that of a 90 degree angle and he threw straight punches much diffrently. as well being faster in that he had a shorter reach and less distance to go to maxmize power.

Of course my freind but even then Rocky's knock down up close and personal does not comparte to them ...Louis knocked out guys with his left hook...its just not any left hook that one. Deal with this , even with their "flawed" right or whatever they had more knockdowns up close than the Rock. What you say about Louis right however is entirely yours theory for which you will have few knowledgeable subscribers...If I am not mistaking you gravely...Thanks for your time