James Toney:Is he a ATG?

[Toney616]

I'm sorry but I can't have that.
I asked what great boxers did he beat to deserve being call an ATG. Holyfield I will take, But if we're considering the likes of Steve Little & Michael Nunn great boxers, then there is something seriously wrong.

I was talking about Tim Littles and McCallum is a great fighter as well
Calzaghe never beat any great fighters, except Hopkins, but you consider him a ATG

James Toney was a great boxer for his day, but all time come on now.

Would you consider Toney in say, the top 10/15 Middles of all time, or alternatively top 10/15 Heavies. The answer is no.
So how can you even think about rating him ATG if he doesn't even stake up in his own divisions?

Im not famliar enough with all the past mw's to make that consideration...yet.

I think his overall body of work should earn him a place anywhere around 95-120, depending on your criteria

[KlownvonnomaD]

I was talking about Tim Littles and McCallum is a great fighter as well
Calzaghe never beat any great fighters, except Hopkins, but you consider him a ATG

Im not famliar enough with all the past mw's to make that consideration...yet.

I think his overall body of work should earn him a place anywhere around 95-120, depending on your criteria

See should we really be considering someone ranked around the 100 mark as an all timer? Personally I think not.

Tim Littles is again a good fighter, McCallum is better one, both good wins. But for me wins like that make you a very good fighter, just not an al time great one.

As for Joe I consider him an ATG, not because of his 46 wins, or the 32 KO's. But for his 0 defeats. I dont think people really understand just what a great achievement that is. Marciano was the only other fighter to do that, and he had less fights than joe, and retired at an earlier age.

[Toney616]

See should we really be considering someone ranked around the 100 mark as an all timer? Personally I think not.
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But there have been so many great fighters over the years, so Its still a great achievement to even be around the 100 mark imo

As for Joe I consider him an ATG, not because of his 46 wins, or the 32 KO's. But for his 0 defeats. I dont think people really understand just what a great achievement that is. Marciano was the only other fighter to do that, and he had less fights than joe, and retired at an earlier age.

But you also have to take into account the overall level of competition faced, Joe said himself that he wanted nothing to do with Jones bitd

[KlownvonnomaD]

I would agree with you 100% that both of them faught they're fair share of average guys. Toney may even have faught the better guys, but the only difference I see is that Joe won his major fights and Toney lost his. For me there lies the difference between good and great.

And again I agree, there probably are hundreds of fighters over the history that could be considered great. I personally think its impossible and even unfair to try and compair fighters from say the last 20 years with those of the 30's, 40's and even earlier as for me the sport has changed dramaticaly.

But for me even over the last 30/40 years Toney still doesn't rank in the top 10/15 in his weight.

A good fighter definately, but if we fast forward will we be still talking about James Toney as an ATG in 30/40 years. I think it's easy to rate fighters that are fresh in the memory a little higher than they probably deserve, and i think Toney is a great example of this.

[Toney616]

I would agree with you 100% that both of them faught they're fair share of average guys. Toney may even have faught the better guys, but the only difference I see is that Joe won his major fights and Toney lost his. For me there lies the difference between good and great.
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Joes biggest fights:
Chris Eubank W
Jeff Lacy W
Mikkel Kessler W
Bernard Hopkins W
4/4=100%

Toney's biggest fights:
Michael Nunn W
Mike McCallum D
Mike McCallum II W
Iran Barkley W
Roy Jones Jr L
Montell Griffin L
Montell Griffin II L
Vassiliy Jirov W
Evander Holyfield W
John Ruiz NC
Samuel Peter L
Samuel Peter II L
5/12=41%

And again I agree, there probably are hundreds of fighters over the history that could be considered great. I personally think its impossible and even unfair to try and compair fighters from say the last 20 years with those of the 30's, 40's and even earlier as for me the sport has changed dramaticaly.
.

Thats a valid point those guys, fought once a month, sometimes once a week and had over 150 fights

But for me even over the last 30/40 years Toney still doesn't rank in the top 10/15 in his weight.

Who would you rank over him, apart from the usual guys like:Hagler, Monzoon, Hopkins and Robinson

A good fighter definately, but if we fast forward will we be still talking about James Toney as an ATG in 30/40 years. I think it's easy to rate fighters that are fresh in the memory a little higher than they probably deserve, and i think Toney is a great example of this.

Only time will tell. For me personally when I think of ATG I think of Moore, Walcott, Robinson and Charles- those kind of fighters. Which is why I say that Toney might be borderline, no way near the 50 range.