List: Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights of All Time

[BennyST]

List your Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights.

My Top 10 of All Time

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman
6. Larry Holmes
7. Harry Wills
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Mike Tyson
10. Evander Holyfield

Damn racist!

[frankenfrank]

Completely ignoring timelines etc.
OK they were the same age and both had a name so as long as there are idiots around lets make the fight. Foreman completely ducked the old overweight Holmes and fought fighters 20 years younger.
Fact is I think negotiations for this fight fell through a couple of times due to money and who got what.

And who is to blame for the negotiations' failure ?

Benetiz wasn't overated just not as big as you like them, also just goes to show that stats don't always work. Offtopic it shows you know little

What does size have to do with what you quoted here ?
I gave examples of men both bigger and smaller than him whom are less considered defensive wizards but were all far from spent at age 25 , yes , even Tyson despite what many people will always claim.
Those people will claim he was spent at 22 and 5 months.

Yes I know you did, I replied don't agree then went on to say Ali's handspeed was greater too. If you read carefully you will learn.

Ali could run/skip/turn faster than George's punches , said GJC.

Wow 3 times!!! Just watch the bits where Ali leaned so far back Foreman couldn't reach him? Good highlights wasn't they? Try watching the whole fight, there was more to the fight than that. As for Dundee lying, you were there in Zaire you saw him loosening the ropes?

When I say I watched a fight I mean I watched the entire fight.
The part you described here is the critical part , where with different ropes , Ali would have been hit full force and would have had to absorb that full force.

Struggling now? Stop trying to make points you can't.

You try to make ludicrous point by claiming Ali could have accommodated , Ali won because of a cheat , simple fact , but not for u and most of the rest .

After Ali won the title back he generally mixed one hard defence with one easier defence, maybe the timing wasn't right, who knows?
You're certain Foreman would win the rematch?
I and everyone else were certain he'd win the first fight too!

And you were all right , Foreman would have won without of the cheat.
But since then you are wrong.

[GJC]

And who is to blame for the negotiations' failure ?

What does size have to do with what you quoted here ?
I gave examples of men both bigger and smaller than him whom are less considered defensive wizards but were all far from spent at age 25 , yes , even Tyson despite what many people will always claim.
Those people will claim he was spent at 22 and 5 months.

Ali could run/skip/turn faster than George's punches , said GJC.


When I say I watched a fight I mean I watched the entire fight.
The part you described here is the critical part , where with different ropes , Ali would have been hit full force and would have had to absorb that full force.


You try to make ludicrous point by claiming Ali could have accommodated , Ali won because of a cheat , simple fact , but not for u and most of the rest .


And you were all right , Foreman would have won without of the cheat.
But since then you are wrong.

ok to wrap this up quickly, what cheat? Who cheated?
The ropes were loose Ali took advantage of them, it was humid, Ali took advantage of it, it's called adapting.
As for Foreman knocking out Ali if the ropes were tighter, based on what?
Ali took enough of Foreman's blows without a problem so guessing that one of the blows that Ali avoided by using the ropes is pure speculation based on zero proof.
I know this is frustrating because Ali's victory proves that he would not break sweat beating the BIG fighters of today but it is what it is.

[frankenfrank]

ok to wrap this up quickly, what cheat? Who cheated?

Lets put the analogy in its place :
[Ali , Dundee] ~ [Resto,Panama Lewis] ~ [Margarito,Javier Capetillo] ~
[Felix Trinidad , Felix Trinidad Sr.] ~ [Pryor , Panama Lewis ]
Ali benefited from Dundee's cheat and his claim to being innocent and unaware is even more glaring than Trinidad's , Margarito's , Resto's and Pryor's claims to being unaware.
Not to mention other heroic stories surrounding Ali's career like the Liston fights and the Henry Cooper fight (which you mentioned) and his dirty style.

The ropes were loose Ali took advantage of them, it was humid, Ali took advantage of it, it's called adapting.

So it means you are also a huge Hopkins fan too , correct me if I'm wrong.

As for Foreman knocking out Ali if the ropes were tighter, based on what?
Ali took enough of Foreman's blows without a problem so guessing that one of the blows that Ali avoided by using the ropes is pure speculation based on zero proof.

The loose ropes allowed Ali to od 2 things :
(1) avoid some of the punches by leaning back quickly
(2) absorb the punches he did not manage to avoid much easier as he move back with the ropes , preventing a knockdown and absorbing a critical part of the punches' energy.

I know this is frustrating because Ali's victory proves that he would not break sweat beating the BIG fighters of today but it is what it is.

Not at all , because Foreman's tiny size and range advantages over Ali were no where near the Klitschko brothers' (again , especially Vitali) advantages over Ali which would have enabled them to beat him in his own game.
The Klitschkos are no Bob Foster , you know ? same for Lewis and Bowe.

[GJC]

Lets put the analogy in its place :
~ ~ ~
~
Ali benefited from Dundee's cheat and his claim to being innocent and unaware is even more glaring than Trinidad's , Margarito's , Resto's and Pryor's claims to being unaware.
Not to mention other heroic stories surrounding Ali's career like the Liston fights and the Henry Cooper fight (which you mentioned) and his dirty style.

We are getting to it now The Klits are the greatest right so lets we need to chip away at Ali?
Ah so it was Dundee cheating was it? And your proof is.........?
Yes I did mention the Cooper fight because i'd love to hear from you how long the delay due to the torn glove was? 15 minutes, while Dundee went to a sports shop to get a new one?

So it means you are also a huge Hopkins fan too , correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong, as usual

The loose ropes allowed Ali to od 2 things :
(1) avoid some of the punches by leaning back quickly
(2) absorb the punches he did not manage to avoid much easier as he move back with the ropes , preventing a knockdown and absorbing a critical part of the punches' energy.

1) When you say some you mean a few
2) Given that Ali didn't hit the canvas and never looked like doing so you believe that the damage of Foreman's punches doesn't effect on impact? OK so you know nothing about boxing or physics

Not at all , because Foreman's tiny size and range advantages over Ali were no where near the Klitschko brothers' (again , especially Vitali) advantages over Ali which would have enabled them to beat him in his own game.
The Klitschkos are no Bob Foster , you know ? same for Lewis and Bowe.

So Foreman's 2 inch reach advantage over Ali wouldn't be as much of an advantage as Wlad's 1 inch or Vitali having the same reach? Boxing, physics and now maths.

But I forgot weight! Yes the Klits would win the weigh in i'll give you that.

So physically Foreman would have been a better fighter in his come back than in the 70s being 30 or 40 lbs heavier?

[frankenfrank]

We are getting to it now The Klits are the greatest right so lets we need to chip away at Ali?
Ah so it was Dundee cheating was it? And your proof is.........?
Yes I did mention the Cooper fight because i'd love to hear from you how long the delay due to the torn glove was? 15 minutes, while Dundee went to a sports shop to get a new one?

Sorry I did not note the brackets problems in here , please read again my last post , I edited the part with the brackets.

Wrong, as usual

But Hopkins has great " accommodating " skills. He "upset" Trinidad , Pavlik and some may say Calzaghe 2 (I will not b dragged into that discussion , I watched that fight and it was really close , I did not claim anything about it here except that it was close and I wrote : "some may say")

1) When you say some you mean a few
2) Given that Ali didn't hit the canvas and never looked like doing so you believe that the damage of Foreman's punches doesn't effect on impact? OK so you know nothing about boxing or physics

Ali admitted himself he was out on his feet but Foreman did not know that , and this is after avoiding some of those punches and absorbing the rest much better due to the ropes not disturbing his move backwards along with the punches which reduces from the energy absorbed.

So Foreman's 2 inch reach advantage over Ali wouldn't be as much of an advantage as Wlad's 1 inch or Vitali having the same reach? Boxing, physics and now maths.

Now u r boxrecing , fuck that **** , Foreman's , Ali's and Liston's effective reach is lesser than each Klischko's

But I forgot weight! Yes the Klits would win the weigh in i'll give you that.

So physically Foreman would have been a better fighter in his come back than in the 70s being 30 or 40 lbs heavier?

Wrong again , as usual .

[GJC]

Sorry I did not note the brackets problems in here , please read again my last post , I edited the part with the brackets.

I didn't miss your point, my answer stays the same.

But Hopkins has great " accommodating " skills. He "upset" Trinidad , Pavlik and some may say Calzaghe 2 (I will not b dragged into that discussion , I watched that fight and it was really close , I did not claim anything about it here except that it was close and I wrote : "some may say")

I had the fight for Calzaghe myself but as you say that's a different discussion.
Hopkins is good at nullyfying opponents for sure, I'm not a fan as I find him a dull fighter and I don't care much for his personality. But he is effective and it is the fault of his opponents if they can't figure out how to beat him.

Ali admitted himself he was out on his feet but Foreman did not know that , and this is after avoiding some of those punches and absorbing the rest much better due to the ropes not disturbing his move backwards along with the punches which reduces from the energy absorbed.

Forgetting the fighting on the ropes Foreman landed more than enough cleanly on Ali to knock him out/down, but Ali never looked in any danger. Ali was also winning the fight he didn't simply win it because Foreman gassed.

Now u r boxrecing , fuck that **** , Foreman's , Ali's and Liston's effective reach is lesser than each Klischko's

OK lets hear your take on effective reach. I know the whole concept that a good fighter from the past isn't going to freeze against Klitschko's because they are sooooo big escapes you but you'll surely agree that Foreman and Ali were of sufficient size that the Klitschko's size wouldn't be a massive advantage.
Let's take Shannon Briggs, 13 years ago a 48 yo Foreman beat Briggs (watch the fight, it was an awful decision) The next fight Briggs gave Lewis a couple of scares. Now the Vitali fans are already building Briggs up as a live body and when Vitali wins it will again affirm to them that Vitali is the greatest!
Wlad has some massive weaknesses which he has papered over but they are still there it's just that the standard of opposition cannot exploit them, better fighters would.
You have a weak era, but you're young and it will improve, when it does you will look back and realise how weak this era is.

Wrong again , as usual .

You are but as long as you read my posts and watch fights instead of weigh ins and boxingrec you'll improve

[frankenfrank]

I didn't miss your point, my answer stays the same.


I had the fight for Calzaghe myself but as you say that's a different discussion.
Hopkins is good at nullyfying opponents for sure, I'm not a fan as I find him a dull fighter and I don't care much for his personality. But he is effective and it is the fault of his opponents if they can't figure out how to beat him.

The key 2 nullifying head leads is elbow leads and counters .
But Hopkins has more support (promotion company , popularity , followers , etc) than most of his opponents which is why he can get away with blatant fouls and his opponents can't.
It is none of their fault.
He was dull but so were Ali and Holmes .

Forgetting the fighting on the ropes Foreman landed more than enough cleanly on Ali to knock him out/down, but Ali never looked in any danger. Ali was also winning the fight he didn't simply win it because Foreman gassed.

Foreman would have worn him out had his punches had their usual effect.
Foreman would have ended his career then , maybe Ali would have launched a failed comeback of a 1-3 fights but would not have won any more against elite opponents .
Fact is Ali never rematched Foreman. No version of Ali could withstand Foreman's punches under fair circumstances.

OK lets hear your take on effective reach.

The length of the arm from the shoulder to the end of the closed fist is what should be taken as "reach".

Effective reach is composed of 2 parts and depends on the opponent :
(1) defensive effective reach : the distance the opponent has to move his punch in order to reach one's head.
(2) offensive reach : swap one with opponent and use the same definition.

Therefore height effects effective reach more than you thought.

I know the whole concept that a good fighter from the past isn't going to freeze against Klitschko's because they are sooooo big escapes you but you'll surely agree that Foreman and Ali were of sufficient size that the Klitschko's size wouldn't be a massive advantage.

Considering Ali's strategy each Klitschko would have had a massive advantage indeed.

Considering Foreman was a tad bit bigger than Ali and was more aggressive ,
he is one of the few I give a realistic chance at stopping the Klitschkos in his prime.

Let's take Shannon Briggs, 13 years ago a 48 yo Foreman beat Briggs (watch the fight, it was an awful decision) The next fight Briggs gave Lewis a couple of scares. Now the Vitali fans are already building Briggs up as a live body and when Vitali wins it will again affirm to them that Vitali is the greatest!

Shannon Briggs is a corpse of a not so good fighter.
A win over him at this point of time will mean ****.
Pity this fight was signed.
I thought the same about Barrett-Tua but Barrett surprised me and I respect him more since then.

Wlad has some massive weaknesses which he has papered over but they are still there it's just that the standard of opposition cannot exploit them, better fighters would.

Only a few could.

You have a weak era, but you're young and it will improve, when it does you will look back and realise how weak this era is.

This era is weak but not as you try to make it 2 seem , simply the Klitschkos make it seem that week.

You are but as long as you read my posts and watch fights instead of weigh ins and boxingrec you'll improve

I watched about 200 fights to this point.
I read many posters' posts.
You will b surprised 2 know that some of the best posters reckon that the Klitschkos and Lewis could beat Ali in his own game.
I would not have discounted Bowe but it would not have been exactly his (Ali's) game .

[frankenfrank]

Ezzard Charles was actually close to the same age as Marciano. Walcott was 38, but still looked very good in the first fight with Rocky (like Vitali Klitschko today at age 39 is still very good).

Archie Moore was still very good too. Was Moore younger when he fought Cassius Clay seven years later?

He was banned , he can't answer .
But instead of him I can say Moore was dead against Ali , and Walcott's (9 years older than Marciano) next fight (against Marciano also) was his last.
And some may say that while Charles was 2 years older than Marciano (still older) the tear and wear on him was even bigger at that point as he started his career at a younger age.

[Joeyzagz]

I respect Frankenfrank more than 80% of the posters here because at least Frank is consistent with his own criteria. I may not agree with Vitali being #1 overall but Frank's criteria are based on certain rules, and he follows those rules throughout his list.

Most people in the history section have a shifting criteria that mysteriously change to exclude certain fighters, and its really childish to be honest.