List: Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights of All Time

[blaze778]

Owen Beck
Bruce Seldon
Jesse Ferguson
Maurice Harris
Derrick Jefferson
Herbie Hide
Oliver McCall
Alex Stewart
Leroy Jones
Larry Donald

Would Bert Cooper and Michael Dokes qualify for your list as well.

[JAB5239]

ahead of Ali ? read my top 30 and above SHW all time thread again.
I gave 2 reasons there .
Louis ? Foreman's opposition was much fiercer than Louis' , I think you are of the same opinion . Foreman dominated his opposition at least as decisively as Louis did his weaker Opposition.
Holmes is the most problematic to excuse against , and may have a claim for being ducked by Foreman , but since Ali is above Holmes even in my list , and Foreman is clearly above Ali , no doubt , then sure he is above Holmes , just look for instance at their mutual opponents : Norton and Cooney and see how each one did against them , remember that Foreman and Holmes are of the same age ! Ali is a common opponent but a bad example for 2 reasons :
against Holmes he had Parkinson , against Foreman he enjoyed a personally built by demand ring and even weather (which I blame much less).
I don't really expect you to understand this , but at least those who read in order to learn may find an answer and a hidden (which I revealed) truth here.
But only if taken in the context of my other posts in my threads .

Your logic is so warped it's not even worth debating with you. Im not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

[frankenfrank]

Holmes came back in January 88 to fight Tyson and looked terrible, he then didn't fight again until April 91. At that point Foreman was challenging Holyfield and had beaten Cooney. They were pretty much moving in different orbits from 91 onwards and a match between them would have had the relevance of McEnroe playing Borg in 2010.

what does it mean , and a fight between 2 men the same age whom even had common opponents in Norton , Ali , Cooney , Holyfield and maybe more
would have always been somewhat relevant at least , and since they both were champions it could have even add to the demand.
Of course it could have been better if it was in the early 80s , late 70s.

If you want to run a poll on when Ali was prime I'd bet good money that 90% will say 1967. OK back to you who was most prime in 1974 between Ali and Foreman? I have an advantage over you in that I remember clearly the fight and am not looking back knowing the result. Ali was given very very little chance.

Justice is not decided by polls .
The young Ali would have been crushed by Foreman , Foreman was no Sonny Liston .

My mistake then

Telling the truth when you are bias and agenda motivated can sometimes be a mistake , be alert next time.

Best to let Angelo Dundee kill the loosening of the ropes myth stone dead

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=23000&more=1

I said to myself they’re going to ask me about the ropes in Zaire. (laughs) And I’m going to tell you, I tightened those stinking ropes at four o’clock in the afternoon but the fight wasn’t until 4am the next day. And you know what happened—the heat stretched the ropes. They were brand new hemp ropes. I didn’t want those ropes to be loose.

Keep believing/quoting the old liar , you are the same.
I read that crap , such a low lie can not work on me , treat it like it came from gawd himself .
Even when his brain is dying the few brain cells that are left are maintaining the evil of old.

Ali didn't plan to do rope a dope he saw that there was no way he could dance away from Foremanfor 15 rounds given how good Foreman was at cutting off the ring and the conditions, Ali adapted like great fighters do.
That said Foreman hit Ali with good enough blows to end the fight but Ali took them, Ali beat Foreman up mentally that's why he won the fight.
Tight ropes, small ring, mild conditions, whatever, Ali would have found a way to win that fight.

:flush0:
what a load of crap
It was the only way Ali could have survived Foreman , keep your alternative parallel reality for the rest of the :buttlick: like the one who wants 2b a mod.
I am interested in the truth alone .
Ali adapted like Hopkins adapted , and like Margachito , Chito Trinidad and Luis Resto adapted , the thread by The Magicman was closed because it told the truth and he was banned 4 it .
The likes of you will climb the walls to say Ali would have accommodated without arms and legs , how cum he didn't accommodate against Holmes then ? he even had his arms and legs , now the 1974 Ali , whom you claim was 7 years removed from his prime , nonetheless , shot to death , could have accommodated even without the ropes , no wonder you worship him so much then.

[GJC]

what does it mean , and a fight between 2 men the same age whom even had common opponents in Norton , Ali , Cooney , Holyfield and maybe more
would have always been somewhat relevant at least , and since they both were champions it could have even add to the demand.
Of course it could have been better if it was in the early 80s , late 70s.

Archie Moore and SRR had opponents in common and would have been a good fight but not too relevant in 1980. You want to see old men competing with each other past their best watch golf legends.

Justice is not decided by polls .
The young Ali would have been crushed by Foreman , Foreman was no Sonny Liston .

ok everyone else is wrong but you
Of course a younger ALi who would have found it easier to stay out of range would have lost lol

Keep believing/quoting the old liar , you are the same.
I read that crap , such a low lie can not work on me , treat it like it came from gawd himself .
Even when his brain is dying the few brain cells that are left are maintaining the evil of old.

Of course Dundee is wrong he was only there.

The likes of you will climb the walls to say Ali would have accommodated without arms and legs , how cum he didn't accommodate against Holmes then ? he even had his arms and legs , now the 1974 Ali , whom you claim was 7 years removed from his prime , nonetheless , shot to death , could have accommodated even without the ropes , no wonder you worship him so much then.

Against Holmes he had Parkinsons, quite hard to adapt to that.

I know you like Foreman because he was a few years ago so you can show you can appreciate older fighters and of course he was BIG

[frankenfrank]

Archie Moore and SRR had opponents in common and would have been a good fight but not too relevant in 1980. You want to see old men competing with each other past their best watch golf legends.

Archie Moore and SRR were not active fighters during the late 80s , and the entire 90s , not to mention Foreman could have came back earlier or not retire even , if he wanted Holmes.

ok everyone else is wrong but you
Of course a younger ALi who would have found it easier to stay out of range would have lost lol

How can one win a fight when remaining out of range of an opponent at least as rangy as one's ?

Of course Dundee is wrong he was only there.

So it makes him tell the truth ? he just tries to cover his own crap , but he can't because it smells through the ages , fact he anticipated that question even at his age. Fact he was asked about it , why do you think that was ?

Against Holmes he had Parkinsons, quite hard to adapt to that.

Don't say that , Ali could accommodate to everything , ropes or no ropes , Parkinosns or no Parkinsons , boxing or muay-thai

I know you like Foreman because he was a few years ago so you can show you can appreciate older fighters and of course he was BIG

What a brilliant observation , are you the son of the grandchild of Sherlock Holmes ? just like you knew I would have called SRR a bum and that I am a Klitschko fan .


I already gave 2 reasons 2 why I rank Foreman above Ali , nothing was taken from either , nor did anyone even doubt the other reason : dominance over common opponents.

[GJC]

Archie Moore and SRR were not active fighters during the late 80s , and the entire 90s , not to mention Foreman could have came back earlier or not retire even , if he wanted Holmes.

Cudda wudda shudda, he retired and come back when he wanted to, end of.

How can one win a fight when remaining out of range of an opponent at least as rangy as one's ?

It's called speed and ability.

So it makes him tell the truth ? he just tries to cover his own crap , but he can't because it smells through the ages , fact he anticipated that question even at his age. Fact he was asked about it , why do you think that was ?

He anticipated the question as he had been asked in so many times. Same as the ripped glove in the first Copper fight. You know the one that gave Ali an hour and a halfs recovery time

Don't say that , Ali could accommodate to everything , ropes or no ropes , Parkinosns or no Parkinsons , boxing or muay-thai

****** comment, so I guess on your theory Ali ducked making a come back and fighting Holmes or maybe Tyson?

What a brilliant observation , are you the son of the grandchild of Sherlock Holmes ? just like you knew I would have called SRR a bum and that I am a Klitschko fan .

All I know is you have like many new boxing fans an obsession with weight and size.

I already gave 2 reasons 2 why I rank Foreman above Ali , nothing was taken from either , nor did anyone even doubt the other reason : dominance over common opponents.

Dominance over common opponents = triangle theory. Only thing with this match up is it isn't theoretical they fought Foreman lost.

[frankenfrank]

Cudda wudda shudda, he retired and come back when he wanted to, end of.

And even then he had an entire decade to fight Holmes .

It's called speed and ability.

Foreman's handspeed was more than Ali's footspeed

He anticipated the question as he had been asked in so many times. Same as the ripped glove in the first Copper fight. You know the one that gave Ali an hour and a halfs recovery time

And why do you think he was asked about it so many times Sherlock ?

****** comment, so I guess on your theory Ali ducked making a come back and fighting Holmes or maybe Tyson?

Ali didn't duck making a comeback and fighting Holmes because he fought him.
Between him and Tyson there are 24 years , so I never blamed him for ducking Tyson. But you should blame it on him because he could have accommodated to everything , couldn't he ?

All I know is you have like many new boxing fans an obsession with weight and size.

Weight and size matter , I also have an obsession with age and other stats.

Dominance over common opponents = triangle theory. Only thing with this match up is it isn't theoretical they fought Foreman lost.

Lost because ?
Many of those things are in my thread on that topic , the thing I didn't know , you told me in this thread.

[GJC]

And even then he had an entire decade to fight Holmes .

Again to what purpose? Fighters fight to advance their careers and to make money. When Holmes was active Foreman was retired and when Foreman came back Holmes was not in the mix.
Just because they are the same age is totally irrelevant, Benetiz was finished at 25 but by your theory any fighter roughly the same age as him, say McCallum, ducked him.

Foreman's handspeed was more than Ali's footspeed

Don't agree, Ali's handspeed was quicker than Foreman's too.

And why do you think he was asked about it so many times Sherlock ?

Lot of idiots around, same people that think that Ali got a 10 minute break in the Cooper fight. Urban myth.

Ali didn't duck making a comeback and fighting Holmes because he fought him.
Between him and Tyson there are 24 years , so I never blamed him for ducking Tyson. But you should blame it on him because he could have accommodated to everything , couldn't he ?

Not everything but throughout his career he problem solved like great fighters do. That is the key to boxing solving the problem the other fighter poses.

Weight and size matter , I also have an obsession with age and other stats.

Think you are following the wrong sport to be honest, I think American Football will hold more interest for you. Lots of stats and big guys too, you'll love it.

Lost because ?
Many of those things are in my thread on that topic , the thing I didn't know , you told me in this thread.

He lost because he fought a ****** fight and allowed Ali to get into his head. Couple that with the fact that Ali fought brilliantly off the ropes and had the greater accuracy and you have it. The problems that Foreman posed, Ali solved, the problems that Ali posed, Foreman didn't.

[frankenfrank]

Again to what purpose? Fighters fight to advance their careers and to make money. When Holmes was active Foreman was retired and when Foreman came back Holmes was not in the mix.

Was Muhammad Qawi in the mix when Foreman came back ?
Was Gerry Cooney in the mix even when Foreman came back ?
Don't you think there was money in such a fight : Foreman vs. Holmes ?

Just because they are the same age is totally irrelevant, Benetiz was finished at 25 but by your theory any fighter roughly the same age as him, say McCallum, ducked him.

off topic : maybe it is an indication to how overrated Benitez is , since when great deffensive wizards are spent at 25 ? Tyson , Holyfield , Frazier , Pacquiao , Barrera , Morales , Marquez were all quite fresh at that age , yet none is considered as great defensively as Benitez.
Hell , Nigel Benn and Julian Jackson were fresh at that age + 2.

Don't agree, Ali's handspeed was quicker than Foreman's too.

I compared footspeed to handspeed , not a genius comparison , but you still got it wrong.

Lot of idiots around, same people that think that Ali got a 10 minute break in the Cooper fight. Urban myth.

I watched the fight 3 times at least , Ali used the ropes , he could do it only because they were so loose , even boxingboy claimed the ropes were loose not because of the heat (Dundee's blatant lie) but because they simply did not fit the ring.

Not everything but throughout his career he problem solved like great fighters do. That is the key to boxing solving the problem the other fighter poses.

I wonder to what extent did he solve the problems posed by Norton and the smallish suspect chinned Frazier.

Think you are following the wrong sport to be honest, I think American Football will hold more interest for you. Lots of stats and big guys too, you'll love it.


He lost because he fought a ****** fight and allowed Ali to get into his head. Couple that with the fact that Ali fought brilliantly off the ropes and had the greater accuracy and you have it. The problems that Foreman posed, Ali solved, the problems that Ali posed, Foreman didn't.

The problems Margarito posed , Cotto did not solve , the problems Trinidad posed , David Reid did not solve , The problems Luis Resto posed , Billy Collins Jr. did not solve.
And somewhat differently , the problems Holmes and Berbick posed , Ali did not solve.

That fight's outcomes are irrelevant , fact is Foreman never got a rematch , and Ali had plenty of 2 and above fight series throughout his career :
Norton , Frazier , Liston , Patterson , Chuvalo , Quarry.
Yet no time for Foreman , Ali knew the answer you fail to acknowledge .

[GJC]

Was Muhammad Qawi in the mix when Foreman came back ?
Was Gerry Cooney in the mix even when Foreman came back ?
Don't you think there was money in such a fight : Foreman vs. Holmes ?

Completely ignoring timelines etc.
OK they were the same age and both had a name so as long as there are idiots around lets make the fight. Foreman completely ducked the old overweight Holmes and fought fighters 20 years younger.
Fact is I think negotiations for this fight fell through a couple of times due to money and who got what.

off topic : maybe it is an indication to how overrated Benitez is , since when great deffensive wizards are spent at 25 ? Tyson , Holyfield , Frazier , Pacquiao , Barrera , Morales , Marquez were all quite fresh at that age , yet none is considered as great defensively as Benitez.
Hell , Nigel Benn and Julian Jackson were fresh at that age + 2.

Benetiz wasn't overated just not as big as you like them, also just goes to show that stats don't always work. Offtopic it shows you know little

I compared footspeed to handspeed , not a genius comparison , but you still got it wrong.

Yes I know you did, I replied don't agree then went on to say Ali's handspeed was greater too. If you read carefully you will learn.

I watched the fight 3 times at least , Ali used the ropes , he could do it only because they were so loose , even boxingboy claimed the ropes were loose not because of the heat (Dundee's blatant lie) but because they simply did not fit the ring.

Wow 3 times!!! Just watch the bits where Ali leaned so far back Foreman couldn't reach him? Good highlights wasn't they? Try watching the whole fight, there was more to the fight than that. As for Dundee lying, you were there in Zaire you saw him loosening the ropes?

I wonder to what extent did he solve the problems posed by Norton and the smallish suspect chinned Frazier.

The problems Margarito posed , Cotto did not solve , the problems Trinidad posed , David Reid did not solve , The problems Luis Resto posed , Billy Collins Jr. did not solve.
And somewhat differently , the problems Holmes and Berbick posed , Ali did not solve.

Struggling now? Stop trying to make points you can't.

That fight's outcomes are irrelevant , fact is Foreman never got a rematch , and Ali had plenty of 2 and above fight series throughout his career :
Norton , Frazier , Liston , Patterson , Chuvalo , Quarry.
Yet no time for Foreman , Ali knew the answer you fail to acknowledge .

After Ali won the title back he generally mixed one hard defence with one easier defence, maybe the timing wasn't right, who knows?
You're certain Foreman would win the rematch?
I and everyone else were certain he'd win the first fight too!