Is Ray Leonard A Top 10 ATG?

[JAB5239]

No. Here is why -

Langford
Greb
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles
Fitzsimmons
Ali
Pep
Benny Leonard
Duran


But that's just me. I don't think Sugar would be very far behind, and I wouldn't be horrified to see him at #10 instead of Duran, although it's worth pointing out that this would mean his being ranked over Archie Moore and Mickey Walker, too - that's a tough argument to make.

I see Sugar as being in the very next clutch, but nearer to 15 than 10.

My list is never definitive but it looks something like this at the moment, putting little thought into it...

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Greb
4. Langford
5. Charles
6. B. Leonard
7. Pep
8. Gans
9. Duran
10. Walker
11. Ross
12. McLarnin
13. Canzoneri
14. Moore
15. Ray Leonard
16. Louis
17. Ali
18. Whitaker
19. JCC
20. Wilde

[McGrain]

My list is never definitive but it looks something like this at the moment, putting little thought into it...

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Greb
4. Langford
5. Charles
6. B. Leonard
7. Pep
8. Gans
9. Duran
10. Walker
11. Ross
12. McLarnin
13. Canzoneri
14. Moore
15. Ray Leonard
16. Louis
17. Ali
18. Whitaker
19. JCC
20. Wilde

I think I have Leonard at the same # currently. Ali is very low. I take it you have a cut off point for rating fighters in terms of the dates?

[JAB5239]

I think I have Leonard at the same # currently. Ali is very low. I take it you have a cut off point for rating fighters in terms of the dates?

I go by what I know but am always open to other opinions provided they are given in a respectful way. As far as Ali goes, I just don't see the heavyweights being as good as many of the fighters in lower classes. Not saying Ali and Louis, who I both consider incredible, but their competition compared to that of other greats. Ali may have fought in the toughest heavyweight era, but that doesn't mean his comp was better than many other weight classes third best era, so to speak. They're just not as all around talented (the comp, not Louis or Ali) as the fighters in the lighter divisions, making the lighter divisions tougher and more diverse imo.

[McGrain]

[/B]

I go by what I know but am always open to other opinions provided they are given in a respectful way. As far as Ali goes, I just don't see the heavyweights being as good as many of the fighters in lower classes. Not saying Ali and Louis, who I both consider incredible, but their competition compared to that of other greats. Ali may have fought in the toughest heavyweight era, but that doesn't mean his comp was better than many other weight classes third best era, so to speak. They're just not as all around talented (the comp, not Louis or Ali) as the fighters in the lighter divisions, making the lighter divisions tougher and more diverse imo.

Well you are missing Bob Fitzsimmons for example, who beat great champs at MW and HW and also lifted the LHW title. My 11-20 would look a bit like this -

11 - Mickey Walker
12 - Joe Gans
13 - Barney Ross
14 - Archie Moore
15 - Ray Leonard
16 - Joe Louis
17 - Joe Walcott
18 - Jimmy McLarnin
19 - Gene Tunney
20 - Charley Burley

[JAB5239]

Well you are missing Bob Fitzsimmons for example, who beat great champs at MW and HW and also lifted the LHW title. My 11-20 would look a bit like this -

11 - Mickey Walker
12 - Joe Gans
13 - Barney Ross
14 - Archie Moore
15 - Ray Leonard
16 - Joe Louis
17 - Joe Walcott
18 - Jimmy McLarnin
19 - Gene Tunney
20 - Charley Burley

In all honesty I don't have Fitz in there because I haven't taken the time to study his competition. Like I said though, Im open to anyone explaining there position on any fighter.

I also Rank Tunney very highly, somewhere around 25 maybe, I'd have to look at everything more closely. What are you feelings about im rawing the color line, and how much greater do you think he could have been had he fought black fighters?

And know that I think about it, I might drop SRL down a spot in favor of Billy Conn. He's another fighter with an excellent resume who I feel gets sold short.

Thoughts?

[McGrain]

In all honesty I don't have Fitz in there because I haven't taken the time to study his competition. Like I said though, Im open to anyone explaining there position on any fighter.

Fitz absolutley destroyed Jack Dempsey at 152lbs. Dempsey may be the most dominant MW champion in all of history. He was past his best when he met Fitz, but still - it was no contest, a total drubbing.

From there, from weighing in at that low weight, he's annexed the HW title. He's got one punch knockouts over huge men, possibly the hardest punch in history. And the champion he disposed was a great one. Afer thsi, psot-prime, he added the LHW title - think about that, 3 title champion beating great men from 152 to average men at 300lbs. One punch ko's. He's an absolute monster in pound for pound terms. I don't like to see him lower than 10 or 11 on a list, personally.

I also Rank Tunney very highly, somewhere around 25 maybe, I'd have to look at everything more closely. What are you feelings about im rawing the color line, and how much greater do you think he could have been had he fought black fighters?

Really, the only scalp that would have been meaningful at LHW was Kid Norfolk. At HW he could have matched Wills of course. Those two big names would have raised him up, yeah.

And know that I think about it, I might drop SRL down a spot in favor of Billy Conn. He's another fighter with an excellent resume who I feel gets sold short.

Thoughts?

Conn is an epic fighter. Top 20...a stretch. Not a million miles away.

[TheGreatA]

Tunney did want a fight against Wills but Wills turned it down. Understandably so because he was the legitimate challenger but atleast Tunney was willing to make an exception to the "rule".

I think Fitzsimmons could very well be the best of the late 1800's fighters. His only meaningful loss was to 40 lbs heavier Jeffries and he beat everyone else.

[JAB5239]

Fitz absolutley destroyed Jack Dempsey at 152lbs. Dempsey may be the most dominant MW champion in all of history. He was past his best when he met Fitz, but still - it was no contest, a total drubbing.

From there, from weighing in at that low weight, he's annexed the HW title. He's got one punch knockouts over huge men, possibly the hardest punch in history. And the champion he disposed was a great one. Afer thsi, psot-prime, he added the LHW title - think about that, 3 title champion beating great men from 152 to average men at 300lbs. One punch ko's. He's an absolute monster in pound for pound terms. I don't like to see him lower than 10 or 11 on a list, personally.

Really, the only scalp that would have been meaningful at LHW was Kid Norfolk. At HW he could have matched Wills of course. Those two big names would have raised him up, yeah.

Conn is an epic fighter. Top 20...a stretch. Not a million miles away.

I appreciate your knowledge McGrain and look forward to learning more from you. I'll start polishing up on Fitz and get back with a new rating for him in a few weeks. Peace.

[Obama]

Leonard may not even make my top 30, forget about top 10. He was a con artist that rarely fought. He was more opportunistic than great. Top 10 opportunist of all time? Sure. ATG? Hell no.

[Snopkins]

Leonard may not even make my top 30, forget about top 10. He was a con artist that rarely fought. He was more opportunistic than great. Top 10 opportunist of all time? Sure. ATG? Hell no.

No,dunce.A con artist is a man who was ashamed of what he was and who managed to avoid virtually every elite black fighter of his generation.The very same con artist that you sport in your avatar.


While we're on topic

This includes a drained Hearns in the first fight, as Leonard forced him to come in underweight just to get a decent paycheck.

Their was a contractual weight stipulation for both fights.

Try not to run away with your tail between your legs this time.