Bert Sugar ''Joe Frazier Is A Greater Heavyweight And Fighter, Than Larry Holmes''

[Heru]

Frazier has had bigger fights, but I cant see how he can be considered greater than Holmes, who was dominant during his hw title reign. In a mythical matchup I would have to go with Holmes who was a better Boxer than Ali.

Yeah, but he dominated during one of the weakest heavyweight eras. It's a tossup, but if I made a list of all the ranked contenders each of them beat, it would be a close quantity vs. quality argument.

[StarshipTrooper]

I disagree in your take that it was "nothing" in comparison. In his peak period, Holmes jab was as good as any in history. The struggles you mention all came later in his championship run and simply aren't true of the second Spinks fight. Ali's jab was faster but how consistently he stepped into it often was defined by who he was fighting. Holmes was still beating decent and occasionally better than that fighters well into his 40s primarily off the stick. Ali had a better right, and faster feet, but his jab wasn't better IMO.

Most boxing historians rate Holmes' jab as no worst than top-3 for Heavyweights and in most cases as the #1 Heavyweight jab ever. Unlike some people I don't consider REAL boxing historians (ie. NOT Bert Sugar yellow journalist ass-clowns) to be idiots.

Holmes was tested plenty; if anything, Holmes sometimes made fights harder than they needed to be through a willingness to war in his prime. He has one of the most rewatchable collections of grueling action fights of any Heavyweight. Norton, Shavers II, Weaver, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon, Williams, Mercer...all fantastic fights or performances where Holmes displayed tremendous courage and skill and when called on a chin and recuperative powers.

No one can watch Holmes take that right hand from Earnie Shavers and Larry's chin was never tested. NO ONE should have been able to get up from that shot.

Poet

[crold1]

Most boxing historians rate Holmes' jab as no worst than top-3 for Heavyweights and in most cases as the #1 Heavyweight jab ever. Unlike some people I don't consider REAL boxing historians (ie. NOT Bert Sugar yellow journalist ass-clowns) to be idiots.




No one can watch Holmes take that right hand from Earnie Shavers and Larry's chin was never tested. NO ONE should have been able to get up from that shot.

Poet

I get labeled a historian sometimes but wouldn't necessarily classify myself that way; hope I'm not on you 'ass clown' list regardless.

Sugar's not all bad; he's more of a fable keeper IMO and valuable in that respect. Boxing, like baseball, lends itself to a certain mythologizing and Sugar's good at that. His history is often flawed but he's a valuable character.

On Holmes, the shot he took from Snipes was a rifle too and Cooney got his licks as well. Norton was such a savage fight over the last six rounds that I don't know how anyone could look at it and not see "TEST."

[StarshipTrooper]

I get labeled a historian sometimes but wouldn't necessarily classify myself that way; hope I'm not on you 'ass clown' list regardless.

Sugar's not all bad; he's more of a fable keeper IMO and valuable in that respect. Boxing, like baseball, lends itself to a certain mythologizing and Sugar's good at that. His history is often flawed but he's a valuable character.

On Holmes, the shot he took from Snipes was a rifle too and Cooney got his licks as well. Norton was such a savage fight over the last six rounds that I don't know how anyone could look at it and not see "TEST."

I may seem harsh regarding Sugar but one of my pet-peevs is story tellers being passed off as legitimate historians; hence my characterization of him as a "yellow journalist" (ie. someone passing off fiction as fact because it makes a good story). I certainly haven't seen anything you've posted as deserving of ass-clown status

Poet

[bklynboy]

Holmes was tested plenty; if anything, Holmes sometimes made fights harder than they needed to be through a willingness to war in his prime. He has one of the most rewatchable collections of grueling action fights of any Heavyweight. Norton, Shavers II, Weaver, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon, Williams, Mercer...all fantastic fights or performances where Holmes displayed tremendous courage and skill and when called on a chin and recuperative powers.

No one can watch Holmes take that right hand from Earnie Shavers and Larry's chin was never tested. NO ONE should have been able to get up from that shot.

My bad. I totally forgot the Shavers fight. Holmes DID have a chin.

[BritishBoxing92]

What do you think about these comments?

TBH, I just don't feel Frazier was a greater fighter than Holmes......

But I also feel Bert's ratings are crazy and feel his knowlodge is overrated!

Paulie

Legacy Wise Holmes had better wins and a better chin....i gotta give it to holmes....but Joe Frazier is definately a top 10 HW all timer...

[GJC]

My bad. I totally forgot the Shavers fight. Holmes DID have a chin.

I take my hat off to you, we will all be right or wrong at different times in these threads, but it takes a man to put his hand up.

[StarshipTrooper]

My bad. I totally forgot the Shavers fight. Holmes DID have a chin.

I take my hat off to you, we will all be right or wrong at different times in these threads, but it takes a man to put his hand up.

Agreed!

Poet

[bklynboy]

Agreed!

Poet

Well, thanks. :-)

[GJC]

Well, thanks. :-)

Meant in all sincerity, gestures like that do people more credit than proving a point and greatly enhance these forums.
Your knowledge is still greatly respected by myself, as I said we will all be right or wrong at different times. I state this with the confidence that I predicted Hatton beating Pac
As for memory, hell I am at the point of senility where generally I want to rebut what I wrote yesterday lol