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Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?

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  • #51
    Originally posted by Bigdaddy_Vh View Post
    if, by overrated, you mean the best fighter to ever walk the planet, then yeah he was overrated


    Good answer!!!

    Comment


    • #52
      Originally posted by ILLuminato View Post
      I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

      SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

      That is all.

      Who do you think should take his place.....Surely not Leonard I hope.

      Let's hope your opinion matter in the near future once you duplicated SRR's feat.

      Comment


      • #53
        Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

        I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?
        You offered a spirited debate? Is that what you call it?

        Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
        You're an idiot.


        So are you.

        I'll debate either of you clowns and embarrass the hell out of you. Bank on it.
        Your lies are too easy to expose. Somebody coming at me with "Yo man you're an idiot and I would beeez destroying you in any debate!" is obviously trying to be an internet tough guy.

        And as far as your 'infractions' go, two can play that game you crying child. You and Poetta offer more flaming than debating so it could be easy to get you banned as well.

        Comment


        • #54
          Originally posted by Slimey Limey View Post
          And as far as your 'infractions' go, two can play that game you crying child. You and Poetta offer more flaming than debating so it could be easy to get you banned as well.
          This coming from someone who's been banned how many times? Not to mention the number of times your alts have been banned

          Poet

          Comment


          • #55
            Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
            This coming from someone who's been banned how many times? Not to mention the number of times your alts have been banned

            Poet
            I am altless, old man. You never brought any proof and others haven't dared to call me an alt lately.
            If I get banned for going too far from time to time I await and take my ban like a man. The reason I get banned however is because of sensitive groupies like you who can't handle negative facts about your idols. It twists your brain. My advice is, leave and make your own forum if all you want to hear is positive things, mate.

            Comment


            • #56
              Originally posted by Obama View Post
              So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


              Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
              Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
              Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
              Undefeated Welterweight Champion
              5 Time World Middleweight Champion
              And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


              Amateur Career:


              Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


              Lightweight Career:


              You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


              Welterweight Career:


              As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


              Middleweight Career:


              Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
              *Includes his winning of the title
              *Fighters in bold are notable

              Wins:
              Jake LaMotta (x5)
              Vic Dellicurti (x3)
              Lou Woods
              Jose Basora
              Jimmy Mandell
              Tony Riccio
              Freddie Flores (x2)
              Freddie Wilson (x2)
              Vinnie Vines
              Artie Levine
              Georgie Abrams
              Eddie Finazzo
              Ossie Harris (x2)
              Henry Brimm (x2)
              Don Lee (x2)
              Earl Turner
              Cecil Hudson (x2)
              Steve Belloise
              Charley Dodson
              Aaron Wade
              Cliff Beckett (x2)
              Ray Barnes
              Robert Villemain (x2)
              Billy Brown
              Joe Rindone
              Bobo Olson
              Jean Stock
              Luc van Dam
              Hans Stretz

              Losses:
              Jake LaMotta II

              Draws:
              Jose Basora
              Henry Brimm

              That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


              Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
              *Does not include his first winning of the title
              *Does not include his last loss of the title
              *Fighters in bold are notable


              Wins:
              Holley Mims
              Don Ellis
              Kid Marcel
              Jean Wanes
              Jan de Bruin
              Jean Walzack
              Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
              Cyrille Delannoit
              Randy Turpin

              Bobo Olson (x3)
              Rocky Graziano

              Joe Rindone
              Johnny Lombardo
              Ted Olla
              Garth Panter
              Rocky Castellani

              Bob Provizzi
              Gene Fullmer
              Carmen Basilio

              Bob Young

              Losses:
              Randy Turpin I
              Joey Maxim
              Ralph Jones
              Gene Fullmer I
              Carmen Basilio I


              That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

              So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


              Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

              *Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
              *Hall of Famers in bold

              Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
              Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
              Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
              Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
              Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
              Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
              Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
              Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
              Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
              Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
              (#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
              Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
              Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
              Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
              California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
              Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
              Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
              Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
              George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
              Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
              George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
              Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
              O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
              Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
              Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
              Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
              Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
              Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
              Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
              Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
              Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
              Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
              Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
              Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
              Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
              Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
              Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
              Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
              Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
              Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
              Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
              Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
              Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
              Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
              Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
              Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
              Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
              Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
              Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
              Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
              Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
              (Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)

              Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
              Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
              Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
              Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
              Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
              Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
              Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
              Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
              Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
              Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
              Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)
              Once again, *****, you outdid yourself. Excellent work

              Comment


              • #57
                never seen his full fights, just tributes, but he looks good

                Comment


                • #58
                  Originally posted by Geze View Post
                  Let's hope your opinion matter in the near future once you duplicated SRR's feat.

                  What a ****** response.


                  Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
                  You need to understand the era to understand why those fights weren't made. There simply wasn't any money in it for him. Im not excusing it, only pointing out a fact. He did beat both Gavilan and Armstrong though, as well as Aaron Wade..


                  So you admit that he avoided them then?

                  Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by donkim View Post
                    Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.
                    The only one you could legit accuse him of avoiding is Charley Burley, the rest were middleweights/light heavyweights by the time Robinson got on the scene.

                    Sugar Ray actually fought the most underrated of the underrated black welterweights, who often got the better of the so-called "Murderer's Row", such as California Jackie Wilson and George Costner who were also top rated in Robinson's division. To this date they're underrated and forgotten despite their achievements.

                    Robinson also fought and beat middleweight contender Georgie Abrams whom one could call a "white" member of the Murderer's Row. No one wanted any part of him, so he fought the likes of Cocoa Kid (beating him by a split decision) and Charley Burley (drawing with him).

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      Originally posted by donkim View Post
                      So you admit that he avoided them then?

                      Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.

                      I didn't say that, did I? As much as I would have liked to see some of those fights have been made, there was nothing in it for him. Its exactly the reason Charley Burley was never bitter towards Robinson and even said he would have done the same thing had he been in Ray's shoes.

                      Comment

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