How high do you rank Larry Holmes in your all time rankings

[Willie Pep 229]

- - In a general sense, yes, but keeping in mind Lar almost lost if not did lose against em, I'd favor Willard over all including Lar in his scheduled 40 rounder vs JJ.

Yupsir, so now the universe has been righted on it's axis...

Could Cobb have beaten Holmes over 40 rounds?

Going 40 rounds against a 1915 Willard, Holmes would have had same problem as JJ . . . outbox him for what seems like forever and then succumb. The round before the KO JJ mustered only two meaningless punches (I mean threw only two, not landed,) he coudn't lift his arms at the end.

[JAB5239]

- - In a general sense, yes, but keeping in mind Lar almost lost if not did lose against em, I'd favor Willard over all including Lar in his scheduled 40 rounder vs JJ.

Yupsir, so now the universe has been righted on it's axis...

I'm curious who you think Willard beat that are on par with any of these guys? And 40 rounds or not, in 4oz horsehair gloves I think Willard gets stopped by all of them.

[JAB5239]

Could Cobb have beaten Holmes over 40 rounds?

Going 40 rounds against a 1915 Willard, Holmes would have had same problem as JJ . . . outbox him for what seems like forever and then succumb. The round before the KO JJ mustered only two meaningless punches (I mean threw only two, not landed,) he coudn't lift his arms at the end.

And that of course was a Johnson who was past his best and had fought five times in five years. Wouldn't we be using the best version of Holmes against that Willard who was at his best that day? I don't thing Willard either lands a glove on or can stand up to the best version of Holmes. In fact there is no one on his resume that makes me think he could stand up to any of the fighters I named.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm curious who you think Willard beat that are on par with any of these guys? And 40 rounds or not, in 4oz horsehair gloves I think Willard gets stopped by all of them.

- - U already established as preoccupied with drinkin', not thinkin'.

JJ better than all but Spinks in a general sense, but over 40rds, Jess whoops em all.

[QueensburyRules]

And that of course was a Johnson who was past his best and had fought five times in five years. Wouldn't we be using the best version of Holmes against that Willard who was at his best that day? I don't thing Willard either lands a glove on or can stand up to the best version of Holmes. In fact there is no one on his resume that makes me think he could stand up to any of the fighters I named.

- - JJ had a 20 rd toe to toe vs Moran for 1914 222 lbs and had an easy tuneup in Argentina, 3 round KO in Jan 1915 whereas Jess had a year of inactivity going into their fight.

The Willard fight the impetus for the best trained and motivated JJ had been since JJeffries, and clearly took the fight to Willard looking for the KO instead of his usual stink out. Willard got into boxing age 29 and 33 for this fight if we want to talk hypothetical handicaps. JJ a well preserved 37 additionally equipped with one of the higher overall intellects in boxing history, most all naturally derived from his surroundings that was mostly the prevailing "white culture" of the day in his latter years.

More than a fair fight, a Great Fight that favors both fighters, but of course boxing being dominated by lowbrows, well lowbrows couldn't know that nor understand it no different than today.

[JAB5239]

- - JJ had a 20 rd toe to toe vs Moran for 1914 222 lbs and had an easy tuneup in Argentina, 3 round KO in Jan 1915 whereas Jess had a year of inactivity going into their fight.

The Willard fight the impetus for the best trained and motivated JJ had been since JJeffries, and clearly took the fight to Willard looking for the KO instead of his usual stink out. Willard got into boxing age 29 and 33 for this fight if we want to talk hypothetical handicaps. JJ a well preserved 37 additionally equipped with one of the higher overall intellects in boxing history, most all naturally derived from his surroundings that was mostly the prevailing "white culture" of the day in his latter years.

More than a fair fight, a Great Fight that favors both fighters, but of course boxing being dominated by lowbrows, well lowbrows couldn't know that nor understand it no different than today.

Johnson had ballooned up to 225 and wasn't the same fighter. Age catches up to everyone, and so does living the good life. Johnson had a lot more wear and tear at that point in their careers because he had been fighting better fighters than Willard. That shouldn't even be an argument.

Willard backs straight up with his hands down. On the inside he try to wrestle. Not only do I believe the fighters I named are better fighters, they beat better fighters than big Jess.

[JAB5239]

- - U already established as preoccupied with drinkin', not thinkin'.

JJ better than all but Spinks in a general sense, but over 40rds, Jess whoops em all.

How does he do over 15 rounds? Me thinks he loses them all, and he probably wouldn't see the distance. How would he survive to win a 40 round fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

In regards to JJ being past it for the Willard fight, they say the first thing a fighter loses is his legs and the last is his punch. Johnson's problem was his inability to stop Willard; I suspect the Johnson who stopped Jeffries in 1910 can't get by Willard over 40 rounds either.

Yes everyone on the list can outbox Willard over 15 rounds, but can anyone stop him? If you can't put him down, and it is a fight to the finish, Willard becomes a problem for any champion without a devastating KO punch.

[QueensburyRules]

How does he do over 15 rounds? Me thinks he loses them all, and he probably wouldn't see the distance. How would he survive to win a 40 round fight?

- - Big Jess intimidate em. He's massive, stronger, and infinitely tougher and less fragile than Cooney who could've had a successful WBA career.

Jess a cowboy brought up hard in Indian Territories, not some candy inner city ****** kid turning to boxing. How many in Lar era could turn pro age 29 without boxing mentoring and do what Jess did?

Lar had tutoring by Dundee and Ali and needed 6 years worth of the most hopeless no hopers imaginable before he caught up to anyone of significance and certainly never caught on with the people until perhaps Cooney in that regrettable King promotion.

[StarshipTrooper]

In regards to JJ being past it for the Willard fight, they say the first thing a fighter loses is his legs and the last is his punch. Johnson's problem was his inability to stop Willard; I suspect the Johnson who stopped Jeffries in 1910 can't get by Willard over 40 rounds either.

Yes everyone on the list can outbox Willard over 15 rounds, but can anyone stop him? If you can't put him down, and it is a fight to the finish, Willard becomes a problem for any champion without a devastating KO punch.

You don't really need to have a devastating KO punch, but you DO need to generate enough offense to batter him to pieces. Ten solid punches beats one or two dynamite punches in wearing down an opponent or maybe putting enough punishment on him that his corner or the ref pulls his plug.