The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[kafkod]

And obviously you can't get your head around Usyk winning the lineal title fight against Fury making him the lineal champion. Gotta be honest here....your arguments are very weak and close minded.

Usyk vs Fury was a lineal title fight in the confused minds of a couple of old guys at a boxing forum. Meanwhile, in the real world ..... skysports-oleksandr-usyk-undisputed_6558961.jpg

[billeau2]

If I misunderstand him, he can put me straight, but these are the opinions I'm talking about:

The lineal title exists only as an idea, a Platonic type idealisation of what the world HW title should or would be, in an ideal world.

Historically, it was created and controlled by Ring Magazine, who awarded their championship belt to the man they considered to be the real HW champ, based on the results of recognised sanctioned title fights. (March knows more about the history of The Ring than I do, and according to him, this narrative was created and controlled by Nat Fleischer, who simply invented his own version of history, when it suited him)

The lineal title is a marketing tool. It was invented to sell fights.

March also said this: "There is plenty of truth to Kaf's stance of it being made up bull****."

You don't have to agree with any of this. If you don't agree, fair enough, no need for any hostility.

Even Marge acknowledged that what Ring did with the lineal does not determine the lineal. If I take your idea and. Use it think for a moment how that reflects on your idea. Just because I am wrong should not affect your initial idea right? Common sense!

Then you turn around and make the same point Yes that's exactly what Nat did. That's not make it right or correct or it does not make it the lineal.

I never said they was total disagreement. You're making the same points. But you are not saying the same thing.

[billeau2]

I've never said that any authority or organisation is infallible. What I am saying is that the recognised title belts have objective existence, the lineal title does not.

I don't accept that Daniel Dubois is the real HW champion. But he is the IBF world title holder, that is an indisputable fact.

It's not an indisputable fact that Usyk is the lineal title holder, as proven by the fact that Usyk himself disputes it.

It's been explained over and over that whether a fighter recognizes the lineal or not doesn't matter. Kudos for clarifying your position.

[billeau2]

Abstract thought is not your forte. You obviously can't your head around the fact that "lineal champion" and "lineal title" are two completely different concepts.

You just created a staw man. Jabs point has nothing to do with the false distinction you attribute to him making.

[billeau2]

And obviously you can't get your head around Usyk winning the lineal title fight against Fury making him the lineal champion. Gotta be honest here....your arguments are very weak and close minded.

I mean we have explained the positions over and over to this guy. He just wants to believe it's a fiction and it doesn't matter what you say to him.

[billeau2]

Usyk vs Fury was a lineal title fight in the confused minds of a couple of old guys at a boxing forum. Meanwhile, in the real world ..... skysports-oleksandr-usyk-undisputed_6558961.jpg

And that's always what you do lol. You just think by saying it again will make it so Will people destroy your arguments over and over again. You might want to think about the undisputed with that entails call that a clue.

[Willie Pep 229]

And that's always what you do lol. You just think by saying it again will make it so Will people destroy your arguments over and over again. You might want to think about the undisputed with that entails call that a clue.

I still argue that the word "'undisputed" implies there are disputes to be had.

The Lineal title is eternal and like Cesar's wife, beyond su****ion.

[billeau2]

I still argue that the word "'undisputed" implies there are disputes to be had.

The Lineal title is eternal and like Cesar's wife, beyond su****ion.

Yes. It's the same logic as talking about champions in a division. And one can assume the reasons for such language is to create a false impression because otherwise it would be obvious that the man who beats the best is the best, and there is a champion for each weight division, that being, the man who beat the best.

Titles cannot be undisputed unless they become one, or have a mechanism for ceding to a lineal type mechanism.

I would not go so far as to argue that because of this predicament we need the lineal but nevertheless, it does show that the power of the consensus that drives the lineal it's very important concept in determining the best.

[kafkod]

Even Marge acknowledged that what Ring did with the lineal does not determine the lineal. If I take your idea and. Use it think for a moment how that reflects on your idea. Just because I am wrong should not affect your initial idea right? Common sense!

Then you turn around and make the same point Yes that's exactly what Nat did. That's not make it right or correct or it does not make it the lineal.

I never said they was total disagreement. You're making the same points. But you are not saying the same thing.

Duh ... isn't that what usually happens when you have the same points being made by 2 different people?

[kafkod]

Usyk doesnt have a say whether he is the lineal champion, it just is. He can claim he only wants belts and that's fine. But by beating Fury he has followed a line of championship succession that neither he nor you can change. And if you want to say Dubois is the IBF world title holder that is fine to. But until he beats Usyk he is really nothing more than a top contender who PAYS for the right to be called a world champion. He didn't earn it.

I still argue that the word "'undisputed" implies there are disputes to be had.

The Lineal title is eternal and like Cesar's wife, beyond su****ion.

Yes. It's the same logic as talking about champions in a division. And one can assume the reasons for such language is to create a false impression because otherwise it would be obvious that the man who beats the best is the best, and there is a champion for each weight division, that being, the man who beat the best.

Titles cannot be undisputed unless they become one, or have a mechanism for ceding to a lineal type mechanism.

I would not go so far as to argue that because of this predicament we need the lineal but nevertheless, it does show that the power of the consensus that drives the lineal it's very important concept in determining the best.

Know what you guys remind me of?

A little clique of obsessive trainspotters who have deluded themselves into believing that the real purpose of the rail network is not to carry passengers around the country, but to give guys like them a fascinating hobby to pursue.

Hell, what's the point of traveling around inside trains anyway? You can't see the engine when you're sitting inside a carriage. And you can't film it thundering down the track at 90mph, or sweeping majestically into a station with that big whistle blowing!

Shit .. you can't even see the ID number on the engine from inside a carriage. So how are supposed to log it, photograph it, and post it online to prove that you've even seen it?