The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[kafkod]

Wrong again... Sanctioning fees have nothing to do with the lineal, the point was, and is, they show a special interest beholdent to that interest. Can you try to think logically and not just try to characterize the lineal based on the alphabet belts? They are different! Entirely different aspects of status in boxing.

Bill, with respect, I'm not going to carry on discussing this point with you. There really is no point going back and forth ad nauseam like this.

[kafkod]

You're saying there has to be recognizable organizations in support, before a lineal title can be decided?

It the "lineal title" exisited before sanctioning bodies got involved it just wasn't called such.

In the comment from you I replied to you said this: "The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

What you are talking about there is the name given to a concept. Before the existence of multiple sanctioning bodies, that concept wasn't needed and therefor, it didn't exist either. You said so yourself in that comment.

[Willie Pep 229]

In the comment from you I replied to you said this: "The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

What you are talking about there is the name given to a concept. Before the existence of multiple sanctioning bodies, that concept wasn't needed and therefor, it didn't exist either. You said so yourself in that comment.

OK! What are we in disagreement about?

[JAB5239]

Damn .. nobody is paying sanctioning fees to fight for a title that doesn't exist. How amazing is that?

Bivol became the undisputed champion by winning all 4 recognised title belts, plus the Ring title, and nobody has beaten him since. That's why he is The Man at LHW. If you want to call him the lineal champion, I have no argument with that. But he does not hold a lineal title. There is no such thing as a lineal title.

Lineal exists, you just have no understanding of it. You can't see it so you claim it isn't so. I can't see the wind so it must not be real, right?

Bivol does hold the lineal title and it's pretty easy to trace. Much easier I'd say than trying to figure out the ABC orgs not only taking their trinket away, but than just handing over to another guy without him ever having had to fight for it. Only when the two best fight can a title truly be gained. Anything else might as well have come out of a box of cracker jacks.

[kafkod]

Lineal exists, you just have no understanding of it. You can't see it so you claim it isn't so. I can't see the wind so it must not be real, right?

Bivol does hold the lineal title and it's pretty easy to trace. Much easier I'd say than trying to figure out the ABC orgs not only taking their trinket away, but than just handing over to another guy without him ever having had to fight for it. Only when the two best fight can a title truly be gained. Anything else might as well have come out of a box of cracker jacks.

Your wind analogy is as silly as the rest of your argument. Wind exists, it can be felt, measured, contained, diverted, used to propel ships and generate electricity, etc, etc.
Lineal titles have no objective or legal existence. They are nothing but ideas planted in the minds of naive, suggestible fans, to part them from their money.

[kafkod]

OK! What are we in disagreement about?

If you understand and accept the fact that the lineal title is nothing but an idea in the mind of whomever may be thinking about it at any given moment, then we not in disagreement about anything.

[Willie Pep 229]

Your wind analogy is as silly as the rest of your argument. Wind exists, it can be felt, measured, contained, diverted, used to propel ships and generate electricity, etc, etc.
Lineal titles have no objective or legal existence. They are nothing but ideas planted in the minds of naive, suggestible fans, to part them from their money.

I won't argue with you definition, there is some legitimacy there, but I think it very unlikely that advocates of the lineal title like us can be grouped as "naive."

I would suggest that we are less likely to be 'parted from our money' than most.

We are a discerning customer.

[kafkod]

I don't see any way lineal can be considered more than an idea if not attached to something more than an idea.

It's as real as like love, hope, hate, and depression are real. and just a definable.

Look as those who "get it" come together with competing definitions and I do not mean the debates.


I have to say, I thought I got the angle but clearly I don't.


It seem all proponents of lineal really hate a rigid definition because there is no rigid definition that can be placed across all generally accepted lineages. and there is no consistency across lineage because it is just an idea like love and if all us who ever experienced love defined it we'd all have variations, none of which would match every situation labeled love or even loving.



TBH my biggest issue with lineal isn't that it struggles beyond any clarification of the vaguest definitions but rather despite the stated goal of this thread I can not for the life of me see how lineal is important to anything.


It is so unimportant in fact its existence is debatable.


Is love important to human life? Debatable isn't it? One can very much be platonic about everything and be content, others not so much.






Lineal is a cult.

Like you said at the start of this comment, the lineal title is nothing but an idea. It exists only in the minds of whomever may be thinking about it at any given moment.

Like all ideas, it has utility. It can be utilised by ratings boards like TBRB, to occupy energetic minds and give well meaning folk a reason to pat themselves on the back for "contributing" to the sport they love.

It can be utilised by fanboys to big up their heroes.

And of course, it can be utilised as a powerful marketing tool by promoters, networks, etc.

[kafkod]

I won't argue with you definition, there is some legitimacy there, but I think it very unlikely that advocates of the lineal title like us can be grouped as "naive."

I would suggest that we are less likely to be 'parted from our money' than most.

We are a discerning customer.

Here's an honest question, asked out of pure curiosity, not to score points in any debate: Would you be more interested in watching a fight, and more inclined to pay for the privilege of watching it, if you believed it was a lineal title fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

Here's an honest question, asked out of pure curiosity, not to score points in any debate: Would you be more interested in watching a fight, and more inclined to pay for the privilege of watching it, if you believed it was a lineal title fight?

If I thought it was the two best fighters squaring off, then it would likely be lineal, so I would want to buy it.

To me Tyson-Spinks was a title fight. Tyson-Berbick was just a SB title fight. I was much more excited by Tyson-Spinks then I was by any of his three SB title fights leading up to Spinks.

Also, only Tyson-Spinks was PPV. The other three fights, the "undisputed championship" fights came with your HBO subscription.

So what does that say about the value of the lineal title compared to SB titles?

Michael Spinks was Mike Tyson's first PPV event.