The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[Willie Pep 229]

And who else knew that? The people that sell fights to fans knew that. We all demanded that fight exactly as you say. So the fight was made. The power of the lineal compelled the capitalists to provide. Simple economics really.

More so . . . At that time neither sanctioning body, NYSAC or the WBA held enough sway to deny Ali championship status and both knew it.

The WBA's guy, Ellis never actually held the HW title because he lost to Frazier.

And Frazier's sanctioning claim disappeared when the NYSAC announced it would cease sanctioning title claims, instead deferring to the WBA.

Think how complicated that makes the Frazier-Ellis fight, if you try to justify it via sanctioning bodies?

No one did. No one even tried, we just accepted it, as it played out and concluded they were the two best. Frazier won.

Frazier was accepted so long as Ali was unavailable. Once that changed, the fight was on, it was only a matter of when.

These "belt advocates," we argue with today, didn't even exist in 1971.

It was a time when the lineal title was the stable element of the game and the sanctioning bodies causing mayhem.

Frazier had to fight Ali and the world knew it.

[billeau2]

More so . . . At that time neither sanctioning body, NYSAC or the WBA held enough sway to deny Ali championship status and both knew it.

The WBA's guy, Ellis never actually held the HW title because he lost to Frazier.

And Frazier's sanctioning claim disappeared when the NYSAC announced it would cease sanctioning title claims, instead deferring to the WBA.

Think how complicated that makes the Frazier-Ellis fight, if you try to justify it via sanctioning bodies?

No one did. No one even tried, we just accepted it, as it played out and concluded they were the two best. Frazier won.

Frazier was accepted so long as Ali was unavailable. Once that changed, the fight was on, it was only a matter of when.

These "belt advocates," we argue with today, didn't even exist in 1971.

It was a time when the lineal title was the stable element of the game and the sanctioning bodies causing mayhem.

Frazier had to fight Ali and the world knew it.

Excellent points! BTW we see this occasionally these days. The British Boxing Council, a bunch of buroc**** smug with entitlement and power saw it as their duty to stop Chisora from fighting Hayes because they were b u t t hurt about an incident that occured. They tried full torpedos ahead to torpedo the fight and could not! The rest is history: The fans wanted it and they got it! It proved to be one of the absolute best scraps in years.

Now for the sake of kafkod let me say: This is not a direct example of the lineal, but it does show the power of the people to compel a fight and even make it happen inspite of the government sanctioning authorities.

[Willie Pep 229]

99.99% of the people don't even know what a lineal champion is.

Back in 1971 the fact that we didn't use the term 'lineal' at the time is a non-argument. We didn't need the term back then, it was a given.

The people knew who the champion was without the label.

The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

We didn't use it in the 1960s and 1970s because we didn't need it. The 'lineal' was the only title we actually recognized so the label wasn't necessary. You fail to recognize that it is a retronym.

So 99.99% of the people didn't know the term but 99.9% of them understood its dynamics. I.e. knew who the champion was.

[kafkod]

The fight was going to happen? Do you know how the fight happened? And the point of the tournament was to create a coherent line with a champion. Ali's "retirement" Involuntary retirement to be exact was a perfect example of the power of the fans to demand a chance for Ali to fight as a former champ. Call it anythig you want it was the lineal at work, doing what it is supposed to do.

And I disagree with you about the fight happening. The establishment was fine with letting Ali rot including while waiting for a trial. Ali's charisma made them have to follow the will of the people and create an opportunity because Ali sold tickets! See how that works? Interests co-join, the powers that be are forced by money to act. And act they did creating one of the best heavyweight divisions, perhaps the best ever... One of the most powerful because people were forced to fight each other.

I really think you should look at your reasoning, I say that constructively. Ali was a contestant for a lineal title, Call it anything you like. The fight happened because the fans wanted to unify the title... call it anything you want... Unifying the title created Frazier (initially) the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world... call it anything you want. I call it the lineal.

I've told you why the fight happened. Ali was a global icon, literally the most well known and controversial human being on the planet. The whole world was following his saga and the whole world was divided on whether they were for him or against him. And 99.999% of the world had no idea what the phrase, "lineal heavyweight champion" even meant!

I think it's fair to say that by the time he fought Frazier, Ali had more people rooting for him than against him. But if you seriously believe that all those millions of people, all around the globe, were following Ali's saga and rooting for him to be allowed to fight for the HW titles again, simply because they knew he had never lost those titles in the ring, and was therefor The Lineal Champion, you are delusional!

[billeau2]

Back in 1971 the fact that we didn't use the term 'lineal' at the time is a non-argument. We didn't need the term back then, it was a given.

The people knew who the champion was without the label.

The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

We didn't use it in the 1960s and 1970s because we didn't need it. The 'lineal' was the only title we actually recognized so the label wasn't necessary. You fail to recognize that it is a retronym.

So 99.99% of the people didn't know the term but 99.9% of them understood its dynamics. I.e. knew who the champion was.

I do not think he understands how people thought back then. The talk was never about sanctioning bodies who operated in a grey area. There was talk of the promoters and promotions... But everyone took for granted what was meant as a champion... exactly as you say Pep.

[billeau2]

I've told you why the fight happened. Ali was a global icon, literally the most well known and controversial human being on the planet. The whole world was following his saga and the whole world was divided on whether they were for him or against him. And 99.999% of the world had no idea what the phrase, "lineal heavyweight champion" even meant!

I think it's fair to say that by the time he fought Frazier, Ali had more people rooting for him than against him. But if you seriously believe that all those millions of people, all around the globe, were following Ali's saga and rooting for him to be allowed to fight for the HW titles again, simply because they knew he had never lost those HW title in the ring, and was therefor The Lineal Champion, you are delusional!

No... Only the subset of people we call "Boxing fans." That is the best you can do to try to prove that there was no push for an undisputed lineal title holder given Ali's predicament?

Many of those people were casuals who loved Ali, but many of them were also fans who loved how Ali fought. Both groups were united perhaps... So?

[kafkod]

What do you think would have happened if Ali was labelled an inserrectionist? A co-conspirator with ties to the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X? The government asked to indict him on such charges? With the people behind the endictement?

Think boy think!!!. Here is a clue ok? When Senator McCarthy, a true rube who had illusions of grandeur, went after J e w i sh producers and actors in Hollywood, he destroyed their careers. Some managed to make it through the witch hunt. You have to understand the power of the government and how it is compelled to act on behalf of the citizenry in Murica. The government is a large hammer, it cannot act with discretion and according to the mean... It is a Frankenstein, and once set on a course, look out! People compelled the government through their actions and protests to act during the Vietnam War and Ali was a major figure because of is noble gesture and words that should be enshrined in any space capsule we send out, to show the potential the human race has...

Power of the people is lineal! Ali had a legitimate claim according to the lineal.

Just a remainder to all: Great thinkers like Hume told us, "Science is Post Priori only constructing a truth after the fact" But it takes a bit to understand why Hume was the Suger Ray Robinson of continental philosophers...

Ali's words are so simple, so elegant and tell a truth everyone can abide by: "I ain't got no beef with no Viet Cong, why should I shoot at them?"

I notice you are ignoring the point I made in the comment you quoted.

Mike Tyson didn't need to beat Michael Spinks to be recognised by millions of sports fans worldwide as The Heavyweight Champion of the World. Lineal championship status is just like the alphabet titles, in that it is only ever as important and respected as the name of the guy who has it.

[kafkod]

No... Only the subset of people we call "Boxing fans." That is the best you can do to try to prove that there was no push for an undisputed lineal title holder given Ali's predicament?

Many of those people were casuals who loved Ali, but many of them were also fans who loved how Ali fought. Both groups were united perhaps... So?

You are misunderstanding the situation again. Nobody questioned Joe Frazier's right to call himself the undisputed world champion. The question everybody wanted answering was ... is Frazier better than Ali? They were universally recognised as the 2 best HWs in the world. Boxing fans wanted to know which of them was Number One.

[Willie Pep 229]

I notice you are ignoring the point I made in the comment you quoted.

Mike Tyson didn't need to beat Michael Spinks to be recognised by millions of sports fans worldwide as The Heavyweight Champion of the World. Lineal championship status is just like the alphabet titles, in that it is only ever as important and respected as the name of the guy who has it.

Yeah he did.

That's why HBO created the term "Undisputed" Heavyweight Champion.

It's one of those paradoxical language things. If he had actually been undisputed he would have been referred to as the Heavyweight Champion without the ahjectival modifier.

"Undisputed" as a term was beat into the American lexicon by HBO who, through Tyson and King, had a monopoly over the HW Championship and an advantage over Showtime. (They were the CBS and NBC of their era.)

But HBO didn't have Spinks and Butch Lewis so they couldn't force that fight.

Not wanting to upset the purest they went with "Undisputed." This recognized all the sanctioning bodies that bowed to their domination of the game and left Spinks for the purist like me to support.

[EDIT] Whom did The Ring Magazine recognized during this period? I don't know.

Once Tyson beat Spinks he became the HW Champion and HBO didn't need to push the 'undisputed' moniker any longer.

From reading some of the other posts it looks "undisputed" has run its course. Now, it seems, that "four belt title" is the new moniker of excellence. I haven't heard 'undisputed' used much lately.

[billeau2]

I notice you are ignoring the point I made in the comment you quoted.

Mike Tyson didn't need to beat Michael Spinks to be recognised by millions of sports fans worldwide as The Heavyweight Champion of the World. Lineal championship status is just like the alphabet titles, in that it is only ever as important and respected as the name of the guy who has it.

How does that follow from your point about Tyson? Can you show me an example of a fighter realtively unknown who became the lineal and remained that way? I doubt it. And EVEN if you were right (I doubt it, I will wait for proof though...) so? What if Spinks beat Tyson? would that create an identity crisis for the Lineal? Can you at least imagine such a scenario and describe it? Doubtful...