The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[Marchegiano]

No. I am saying I do not understand your point. Truly? I still do not. Promoters act on what the fans will pay to see am I wrong?

I'm not frustrated by this but I think it may be time give up on communicating that point and maybe move toward illustrating. Give me some time to put together the facts and present it. You will get it.


Ironically, you got me to 180 by making a point not only did you not necessarily intend but don't even recognize the value of Don't be so ****ing convincing!

[billeau2]

I'm not frustrated by this but I think it may be time give up on communicating that point and maybe move toward illustrating. Give me some time to put together the facts and present it. You will get it.


Ironically, you got me to 180 by making a point not only did you not necessarily intend but don't even recognize the value of Don't be so ****ing convincing!

If only my wife felt the same way...

[tokon]

Gets into a whole other set of issues. The biggest problem being: How do we reasonably judge the specific enhancements a fighter beniffited from? And how do we determine the general use of substances in the general population of fighters?

Why is either of those even necessary?
Fighter fails a PED test, he cheated. It doesn't matter what specific enhancements he did/didn't get, he's a cheat. If Fury hadn't "retired" ( his retirement and return su****iously coinciding with failed tests and ban dates) he would have been banned and stripped. That's the consideration in terms of "lineal" imo.

[billeau2]

Why is either of those even necessary?
Fighter fails a PED test, he cheated. It doesn't matter what specific enhancements he did/didn't get, he's a cheat. If Fury hadn't "retired" ( his retirement and return su****iously coinciding with failed tests and ban dates) he would have been banned and stripped. That's the consideration in terms of "lineal" imo.

Because if you are not catching the problem then the punitive measures mean very little. Also, there has to be some perspective on the use of steroids as a class of drugs. An older fighter should be able to use basic steroidal preparations to heal that anyone might get from a doctor. Is it fair that a fighter should lose years off a career because they cannot use drugs needed to heal from injuries? Steroids as a class of drugs is only a part of performance enhancing drugs. What enhancement is caused if I use a steroid to heal a shoulder cuff?

If it turns out that many fighters are masking the use of performance enhancing drugs, and there is no real measure of which drugs, regardless of class, are used to heal versus enhance, the whole process becomes somewhat arbitrary.

[tokon]

Because if you are not catching the problem then the punitive measures mean very little. Also, there has to be some perspective on the use of steroids as a class of drugs. An older fighter should be able to use basic steroidal preparations to heal that anyone might get from a doctor. Is it fair that a fighter should lose years off a career because they cannot use drugs needed to heal from injuries? Steroids as a class of drugs is only a part of performance enhancing drugs. What enhancement is caused if I use a steroid to heal a shoulder cuff?

If it turns out that many fighters are masking the use of performance enhancing drugs, and there is no real measure of which drugs, regardless of class, are used to heal versus enhance, the whole process becomes somewhat arbitrary.

Perspective? You can't just rewrite the rules to what suits you!
The facts are that Fury tested positive for a banned substance. He cheated! The discussion is "lineal" and surely the fact that the "lineal" champion cheated, got caught, and got banned must impact on that?

[Willie Pep 229]

Perspective? You can't just rewrite the rules to what suits you!
The facts are that Fury tested positive for a banned substance. He cheated! The discussion is "lineal" and surely the fact that the "lineal" champion cheated, got caught, and got banned must impact on that?

Of course he can. That's one of the magical elements of the lineal title.

Now should he? Well that's a different kind of animal all together.

I posted earlier regarding this point. That so long as the commission involved allows the fight to happen, then we can choose (or not choose) to accept it.

This world is full of so much information, misinformation, and disinformation that when some lab comes forward and makes a negative claim against a fighter, I am not going to accept it at face value.

What I really don't understand about the point you're making is why would anyone bother testing a fighter after a fight?

If a commission is going to claim the authority to regulate a prize fight it only makes sense to test and confirm a fighter before the fight.

Testing a fighter after a fight makes no sense towards safety or fairness, and it makes me wonder why one would bother, unless someone, somewhere had an agenda.

If it should be, that it is regular (commission) policy to test fighters after the fight, then that's a waste of state tax dollars; that's a silly commission.

[EDIT] A commission that holds a post fight test sounds like a crooked commission protecting some outside agent's interests.

To argue that a post fight test somehow promotes safety or fairness doesn't hold water.

Safety and fairness should be the only concern of a commission.

[billeau2]

Perspective? You can't just rewrite the rules to what suits you!
The facts are that Fury tested positive for a banned substance. He cheated! The discussion is "lineal" and surely the fact that the "lineal" champion cheated, got caught, and got banned must impact on that?

There has to be some allowance in how we look at this to consider how many fighters are juicing. No we do not know a number, cannot prove it absolutely, but to most reasonable points of view it would seem fairly obvious. I think that matters.

I also think cheating can be a lot more than legal substances versus illegal substances. Rehydration things like that. We have to account for that as well.

[Willie Pep 229]

Need same day weigh-ins.

I'm surprised (bicycle racing style) blood doping hasn't appeared in boxing.

[QueensburyRules]

Need same day weigh-ins.

I'm surprised (bicycle racing style) blood doping hasn't appeared in boxing.

- - Why return to a dangerous time for fighters who already have it tough enough.

How about we turn back to the original bare knucks open class where 140 lb Tom Sayers was whooping hvys?

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Why return to a dangerous time for fighters who already have it tough enough.

How about we turn back to the original bare knucks open class where 140 lb Tom Sayers was whooping hvys?

I think fighters who cheat weight classes via dehydration and re-hydration are actually creating a more dangerous set of circumstances for both themselves and the opponents they seek to gain an unfair advantage over.

Re Bare Knuckle Fighting: Actually the safest type of prize fighting would be to fight under the MQB rules, but bare knuckle.

Bare knuckle fights were dangerous because the LPR Rules allowed for the fighter to suffer multiple concussions in a single fight. (See LPR Rules regarding KDs, extended rest periods, and the role of seconds).

But if you take the gloves off, but maintain the MQB knockdown safety rules, the game would become much safer.

Lots more broken noses, detached retina, and cauliflower ears, but almost no brain swelling.

Shots to the face disfigure, shots to the head, especially when delivered by a taped fist inside a leather glove are deadly.

This may seem paradoxical but its true.

If the NFL would get rid of plastic helmets and face guards, there would be some short term tragedies (as there was in the early 1900s) but the long term damage of CTE, which now affects a majority of players would almost disappear.

Remove the plastic helmet and kill a few outright in the short term or keep the game as it is, and continue the brain damage damn near EVERY player today, suffers long term.

Interesting tradeoff.

Same day weigh-ins are safer. Makes the fighters fight men their own size, not allow men to manipulate the weigh-ins to fight in a lower class they really should not be in.

P.S. It's why headgear is gone from amateur boxing. All the headgear did was give just enough protection to keep the boxer upright, but allowed for multiple smaller concussions in a row.

It is better for a kid to go down from one big blow and stop the fight, then to give his brain partial protection and let him get slightly concussed, over and over.

You either have 100% protection (which is impossible) or it's better to have no protection and let it end with one blow.

Partial protection of the brain is a guaranteed long term train ride to dementia.