The Best Between 180lbs & 190lbs?

[JAB5239]

I'm afraid,for his first 5 fights he did.

You're right, and I was admittedly wrong. He doesn't break the top 10 though with this criteria, probably not the top 20 based on the opponents he faced.

[Anomalocaris]

Fair question
I think we have more verified weights of Langford between those limits than we have of Johnson ,or Fitz,but I'm open to persuasion.

Yes, I am sure others will clarify the situation.

[Marchegiano]

Fair question
I think we have more verified weights of Langford between those limits than we have of Johnson ,or Fitz,but I'm open to persuasion.

Do you mean like when they give us a footnote similar to this:

"Verifried from Mexican newspapers by Bob Yalen, and reported in The Ring, September 1923, page 25, and also in Boxing Blade, August 11, 1923, page 14.." ?

So to verify we need to find newpapers or maybe something like a journal of a person involved?

"mexican newspaprs" is super vague but boxrec is good about not giving any source at all so I'll call that boxrec being boxrec and not bash on Bob for it. He probably named his source ... I assume.



I wonder, since they listed two mag reprints, how often they list data pulled from Ring or some such similar like Fight Hype without the source or checking with the source to make sure the reprint was at last accurate to the source.



Didn't really know about this issue ... sounds like when I tore the jack dempsey/johnson story apart simply by poking around paper archives. Might be fun and revealing but I doubt any data retrieved changes anyone's opinion of anyone in any major way.



Just saying, the only thing worth anything in that "verified by" is the historian's credential. Some Mexican newspaper is def not an answer you'd accept from me.


I'm gonna go source hunting a while.

[Marchegiano]

https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,4995359&hl=en

[Marchegiano]

Sorry I had been getting errors while trying to post

That link is a newspaper covering Fitzs Jeff 2. It is the source boxrec claims for Fitzs Jeff 2. In that article it lists Jeff at "about 217" and Fitzs "between 156-160" however Boxrec has Jeff at 219 and Fitzs at 172.

Make of it what you will, I'm off for more.

[QueensburyRules]

Whatever you say Corky. The only fact is Beter has never officially weighed about the lightheavyweight limit as a professional.

- - The fact that yer noggin filled with helium and laughing gas hasn't floated out to space is a testament to yer leaded derrière...

[JAB5239]

- - The fact that yer noggin filled with helium and laughing gas hasn't floated out to space is a testament to yer leaded derrière...

Well, I'm not the imbecile who brought Beterbiev up in a discussions of great fighters that weight between 180 and 190lbs.

[Marchegiano]

I accept the research done by Pollack and Moyle as far as weights are concerned.
Some of Fleischer's original weights in his .History Of The Heavyweight Championship,have proven to be false,but maybe that's down to the lack of reliable sources back then?
Fitz was notorious for giving out a weight under what he really weighed so he is hard to quantify,but if anyone feels strongly enough that he fits the bill,then of course they are entitled to include him,me excluding him,doesn't mean anyone else has to. I think Fitz was often in the 170/175lbs range ,but that's only a gut feeling and I have no solid basis for it.

I know you trust historians but I'm going to co-sign anyway.

I only put up one source because it wasn't great and all I was doing was checking Boxrec for Boxrec BS, but afterward I did actually look at a few sources and boy, no, Fitzs don't tell you **** and that between 150s to 160s **** is pretty much all he ever claims.

Was there not weigh ins? I seem to remember reading about weigh in during the 1890s but maybe I misremember?

Papers won't be a good source for weight. Maybe a sparse source for weight but it isn't going to lead to a well of info.

What about maybe Bells?

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey
Langford
Charles
Tunney
Moore
Bivins
Patterson
Loughran
Marciano
Holyfield

[Marchegiano]

I trust some historians,and I find the title historian a very vague one when it comes to boxing
We agree about Fitz .You would know better than me about the older days.
Bells mentions weights at times ,but it isn't clear if they come from verified weigh ins,are "guestimates,"or supplied by the fighters themselves ie Fitz
Examples of the 1900's Johnson and O Brien, Johnson and Langford= no weigh in = guestimates.

On another topic didn't you say Jem Ward, won his championship in a fixed fight against Cannon, and his defence against Byrne was fixed?
Bells says they were both on the up an up,not directly but by there round by round reporting.I don't know it's not my era.
As you are aware Box rec is a useful guide, but its definitely,not to be taken as gospel.

I wrote all this then my dumbass dumb ass finally just popped a tab and checked what CBZ has quickly:

It is not clear as to why the International Boxing Hall of Fame Hall elected Jem Ward in 1995. He took a dive in two of his early fights and was probably involved in one otherfixed fight. Ward's last fight (a 77-minute victory over Simon Byrne), was described by Gilbert Odd as "a disgraceful affair."

So I guess ... maybe?




I'm leaving this longer bit because I already wrote it!

Oh god the Ward stuff.

I think it's on CBZ even but I may be wrong.

If I said Cannon in the past, I'm going to trust a past me to be fresher and more willing with details because he knew... it's more likely I looked it up before posting than didn't if I gave details or didn't say I'm shooting off the cuff.

The Byrne bit I can cover from the cuff though, at least to some degree.

Ward was ducking Burke. As far as I know Byrne's not even a real fighter, he's a member of the Ward Gang. So if he "fought" Ward I would be super suspect of that but I am not a historian I'm just a rando jabroni so if someone else says differently, cool, please share.

Ward took Burke's money for a title fight. Ward then retired and elected Byrne to take his spot so the vacancy would be Def Burke vs Simon(? I THINK) Byrne. Electing the vacancy wasn't weird back then, normal stuff.

Burke didn't realize Byrne's background and went at him like a champ ought to. Def'un kicks Simon's ass, Ward takes the ring to announce his return to boxing, still the champ. Byrne goes to hospital, dies there. Burke is arrested for murder.

Burke would later gain the championship of england after beating the irish champion in america, a decade later American boxing produces its own champions. kinda cool