Why not Holmes over Ali?

[QueensburyRules]

Young just forgot that there are ropes in a ring for a reason lol. Ali was technically past his best pretty much when he was released from prison. One can only imagine if Jones, for example, had most of his prime erased, how he would be viewed. While it often seems clique for the novice fans, there is a reason why people in the know are son judicious about crediting fighters success against a later Ali... I could never see the best of all the Spinks combined, challenging Ali at his best.

As far as a weakness, Ali really created his own with his style of moving straight back. But when we look at a fighter with the speed of a lighter divisions champ (T Stephenson the great Cuban was another one) and a heavyweight frame... The great ones have their reasons... Pablo Picasso painted stuff at times that looked like a kid's drawing but he could create magic and use classical forms when it suited his purposes, as well as any great artist at the time.

If I had to pick Ali's poison I would go with a legit pressure fighter, or a great fighter off the line (like an in tact Liston) but who knows?

- - Vitchy like U Ali released from prison when Ali never served any time in prison.

What was the brand name of U BigBoys then?

[Bronson66]

B





Tony McVey, Tonto62, Ivich or whatever other name you been BANNED under. AND Bronson ( all the same guy ). Listen up because I only intended to stay this once.

I said Gunboat TKO'd him in a 4 rounder, it was an exhibition match. His manager halted the match when Jack saw stars and was down out from a punch . What do you call that result?

Fight news reported that Lewis had loose tape on the glove, not I.

Fitz vs Ruhlin was filmed. You are a bet welcher.

Burns is reported having a Jaundice and look yellow. Read the Burns book! It is right there. Or read Kevin Smith. As it was, Johnson beat on a 168 pound sickly man.

According to Jeannette, not Me, he weighed 165 pounds. And Johnnon low blowed him and was DQ'd , yet somehow kept his title.

The NY Times, not I said Johsnson was groggy, and he struggled to get up. He was as resting on the ropes and still dazzed when the fightended accoding to the NY Times..

Johsnon did foul in several of his fights so are on film, others are news reported.

According to two books, Johnson quit in one the the kl@n***e fights. You really are an idiot.

Yes, It is my opinion that Louis had some favorable judgement and his manager was convicted on Money running. You did hear of the fixed fights problems at MSG in the 1930's and 1940's? Maybe you didn't

It was my mistake and I said so. Lewis fourth just one southpaw early in his career. It was Gorell a 21-7 fighter who had lost 2 of his last 4. ,Louis foght none.

SI reported Mozon down vs. Ferenadez

As I have repeatedly said I have had 2 usernames on here and 2 on Classic,never had an ALT.

GunBoat Smith knocked Johnson partly through the ropes in a sparring session.We have Smiths own word for this in Heller s book," In This Corner" a taped interview with Smith .YOU CANNOT HAVE A TKO IN A SPAR

That's why it is not on Johnson's record and that's why Smith never claimed one in his recorded interview. Johnson sparred with 3 other men that afternoon and I gave their names on here before.

2.Nobody but you claimed Lewis cut Vitali with anything but the knuckle part of his glove.

3.Fitzsimmons v Ruhlin was NOT filmed the camera would not work,this is confirmed by authors Gilbert Odd.Adam Pollack,and Steve Compton.

S Lubin made a re-enactment with the actual fighters and tried to pass it off as the real thing it worked fora few days ,until it was spotted that Ruhlin's chief Second Jim Corbett was not in the corner.I pointed this out to you several times and you refused to honour the bet saying are-enactment counted as the fight being filmed.
If the fight HAD been filmed there would have been no need for a fake re--enactment to be made would there!

You also stated that Ted Spoon, author of PUGILATUS told you it was a filmed,I contacted Ted and he said he has never spoken to you.

4.Burns trained daily in public workouts he sated the day of the fight he was in the condition of his life,and NEVER subsequently said he had jaundice. That's why he had shed some surplus weight.As the Champion and a close friend of the Promoter/Referee, if he was unwell,he could have requested a postponement.In his Johnson book, Pollack never claimed Burns had jaundice.

Kevin Smith in the time I have been on Classic ,over13 years,has to my knowledge only posted on it ONCE. That was to tell you not to misquote him and that he never said Burns had jaundice.
5. You stated Jeannette was 165lbs.In their previous fight 6 months earlier25 years old Jeannette weighed 185lbs.So ,according to you he dropped 20lbs for their next fight!

6.Johnson was DSQ'd ONCE in a fight that he was winning and the alleged foul against Jeannette is very controversial Why would Johnson foul in a fight he was winning?.

.7.According to Adam Pollack who has written a 3 volume biography of Johnson the police stopped the Johnson v Klon***e fight and Johnson did NOT QUIT.

8.YOU stated that Louis had his own officials and that he was mob controlled. John Roxborough ,one of Louis' managers was a numbers runner,that is the extent of his association with the mob. Braddock,the man Louis took the title off had a manager, Joe Gould who was mobbed up to the eyeballs.So was Max Baer's real manager and Joe Walcott's.

9.You stated you read in a Spanish newspaper that Monzon was knocked down .You didn't, that is a deliberate lie and was proved to be so by an excellent poster on here. Thats why it isn't in Box Rec.
10 You didn't answer about your previous claim that Burns injured Johnson's body and Johnson had to go to hospital after the fight.Johnson didn't ,he went for a swim.

IN SUMMARY YOU ARE A COMPULSIVE LIAR, HATER. AND A BET WELCHER.

ps I've only just lightly skimmed the surface of your lies.eg

How long ago was it you claimed Harry Greb was ***ish. He wasn't.
His parents were Catholic, he was baptised as one, married in a Catholic Church and buried in a Catholic Cemetery.

You claimed Arthur Donovan, HOF Referee was corrupt but offered no proof of your accusation but then you never do.as you did with Jab you just say read the reports.Well I DO read the reports, and I keep them!

[billeau2]

- - Vitchy like U Ali released from prison when Ali never served any time in prison.

What was the brand name of U BigBoys then?

[JAB5239]

Okay, I'll will go on your word that you not were tried and it was not in the book Facing Ali. For the puropse of the thread, I admit I was wrong on the book, but not on the point that Holmes would have beaten Ali much sonner in the time fought in ( 1979 or 1978 ) or likley in 1977. As it was, they fought in 1980 and Ali did win any round.

What is your point? The question is irrelevant to your original post. It has absolutely no bearing on whether Holmes should rank higher than Ali, and by all logic and reason, using the FACTS, he shouldn't. I just to Haye Holmes, but became a big fan after reading his autobiography. But I don't let that cloud my judgment.

At the very least I give you credit for admitting you were wrong.

[Dr. Z]

What is your point? The question is irrelevant to your original post. It has absolutely no bearing on whether Holmes should rank higher than Ali, and by all logic and reason, using the FACTS, he shouldn't. I just to Haye Holmes, but became a big fan after reading his autobiography. But I don't let that cloud my judgment.

At the very least I give you credit for admitting you were wrong.

I said I will go on your word and by doing that amidit I was wrong. Are you not happy with that? If Holmes beats Ali in 1977 as opposed to easily beating him in 1980, who is your #1 overall heavy weight?

You never said when you think Holmes would beat Ali. 1980. 1979, 1978, or 1977?

Remember Frazier and Norton soundly beat Ali, before ALI beat Foreman. And had problems with Young ( lost that fight on my card ) And Lyle ( who was ahead in points deep into the match ) when the fight was halted with Lyle on his feet. IMO, those two were not equal to Holmes. And of course Ali got gifted for the 3rd Norton fight. If he did not, it is even harder to argue Ali over Holmes.

[Bronson66]

I said I will go on your word and by doing that amidit I was wrong. Are you not happy with that? If Holmes beats Ali in 1977 as opposed to easily beating him in 1980, who is your #1 overall heavy weight?

You never said when you think Holmes would beat Ali. 1980. 1979, 1978, or 1977?

Remember Frazier and Norton soundly beat Ali, before ALI beat Foreman. And had problems with Young ( lost that fight on my card ) And Lyle ( who was ahead in points deep into the match ) when the fight was halted with Lyle on his feet. IMO, those two were not equal to Holmes. And of course Ali got gifted for the 3rd Norton fight. If he did not, it is even harder to argue Ali over Holmes.

You've been taught a lesson here,but knowing you as I do,I know it won't make any difference to how you operate.
Your own thread was about who was the better fighter Ali or Holmes ?That was the question you asked.
To try and make a case for Holmes ,you posted a lot of misinformation that I proved was untrue.
You couldn't win that one, so you ignored my corrections and changed tack , coming up with this ridiculous question what year does Holmes beat Ali?
Which has nothing to do with your original question. Both in their prime, who was the better man ?
And we already knew the answer to that!
What year the 81/2 years younger Holmes would finally beat Ali is not only totally irrelevant to your original question, it's nonsensical because it proves nothing as far as a head to head comparison is concerned,and you're the only Muppet who can't see that!

We know Ali was the better man prime for prime,just as we know Jab is a better poster than you!
It's been very gratifying watching you and your lies get exposed ,I look forward to your next BS thread when we can do it all again !

[JAB5239]

I said I will go on your word and by doing that amidit I was wrong. Are you not happy with that? If Holmes beats Ali in 1977 as opposed to easily beating him in 1980, who is your #1 overall heavy weight?

You never said when you think Holmes would beat Ali. 1980. 1979, 1978, or 1977?

Remember Frazier and Norton soundly beat Ali, before ALI beat Foreman. And had problems with Young ( lost that fight on my card ) And Lyle ( who was ahead in points deep into the match ) when the fight was halted with Lyle on his feet. IMO, those two were not equal to Holmes. And of course Ali got gifted for the 3rd Norton fight. If he did not, it is even harder to argue Ali over Holmes.

I gave you credit for admitting you were wrong. Don't know ow how you could have missed it.

As far as your question of what year I think Holmes would best Ali, it has no bearing on the thread you starred. So no matter my answer, your answer or anyone else's answer, it's irrelevant to the thread YOU started.

Frazier beat Ali who had his third fight in 4 years after being unjustly banned. A win is a win though. Norton did. Norton did not ever soundly beat Ali. He had a good style to counter Ali's, but there fights were close. Its easy for you to try and throw Ali under the bus with nonsensical sayings like "soundly beat" or asking what year (irrelevant) Holmes would have beaten Ali. But you never ask the question of how the 1973 Norton would have done against the 1978 Holmes. Its also irrelevant to your thread, but it shows how easy it is to throw shade when you make assumptions instead of relying on the facts. Would Holmes be seen as great as he is if he had to face the murderer's row of heavyweights Ali fought? Probably not. But also irrelevant to your thread. Now you're pulling close fights outside of Ali's prime as if that defines him. If it does than certainly the Shavers and Lyle fights make him that much greater considering the wars he had been in as a 15 year professional, no?

[Dr. Z]

I gave you credit for admitting you were wrong. Don't know ow how you could have missed it.

As far as your question of what year I think Holmes would best Ali, it has no bearing on the thread you starred. So no matter my answer, your answer or anyone else's answer, it's irrelevant to the thread YOU started.

Frazier beat Ali who had his third fight in 4 years after being unjustly banned. A win is a win though. Norton did. Norton did not ever soundly beat Ali. He had a good style to counter Ali's, but there fights were close. Its easy for you to try and throw Ali under the bus with nonsensical sayings like "soundly beat" or asking what year (irrelevant) Holmes would have beaten Ali. But you never ask the question of how the 1973 Norton would have done against the 1978 Holmes. Its also irrelevant to your thread, but it shows how easy it is to throw shade when you make assumptions instead of relying on the facts. Would Holmes be seen as great as he is if he had to face the murderer's row of heavyweights Ali fought? Probably not. But also irrelevant to your thread. Now you're pulling close fights outside of Ali's prime as if that defines him. If it does than certainly the Shavers and Lyle fights make him that much greater considering the wars he had been in as a 15 year professional, no?

Okay, At this point you can not say that you think Holmes would beat Ali in 1977 or 1978 BECAUSE you can't admit it....you are sitting that question out. I asked it to you several times and it was a main point of my thread ( Holmes over Ali ) along with the Lyle, Young, Shavers, and Norton fights for Ali. Now I think the 1978 Norton was better than the 73 Norton. as he had more experience.


Reverse the Young and Norton BS decisions for AlI ...And it is harder to argue he is #1. If Larry had a chance to fight in 1977-1978 who would have lost the decisions to Young and Notron, barely got by Shavers ..Holmes would be viewed as better. That was a main point of the thread.

[JAB5239]

Okay, At this point you can not say that you think Holmes would beat Ali in 1977 or 1978 BECAUSE you can't admit it....you are sitting that question out. I asked it to you several times and it was a main point of my thread ( Holmes over Ali ) along with the Lyle, Young, Shavers, and Norton fights for Ali. Now I think the 1978 Norton was better than the 73 Norton. as he had more experience.


Reverse the Young and Norton BS decisions for AlI ...And it is harder to argue he is #1. If Larry had a chance to fight in 1977-1978 who would have lost the decisions to Young and Notron, barely got by Shavers ..Holmes would be viewed as better. That was a main point of the thread.

Why would I comment on something that is irrelevant? I could say, there just isn't any need to.

So you feel the '78 Norton is better than '73? OK. The '78 Norton from Holmes on out went 2-3-1. Interesting choice.

Reverse the Young and Norton fights? Sure. While we're reversing things we can reverse the Williams and Witherspoon fights for Holmes.

[Dr. Z]

Why would I comment on something that is irrelevant? I could say, there just isn't any need to.

So you feel the '78 Norton is better than '73? OK. The '78 Norton from Holmes on out went 2-3-1. Interesting choice.

Reverse the Young and Norton fights? Sure. While we're reversing things we can reverse the Williams and Witherspoon fights for Holmes.

Hahaha, um okay, I can't make you say it even though that is what you beleive.

Reverse the Ali Vs. Young and Norton fights? Why do that? Ali lost them on fair score cards. Punch stats agree.

In the stats department, Young landed 222 punches to Ali's 113. Young outlanded Ali 65–27 in jabs and 187–86 in power punches. The punch disparity highlighted the booing at the judges decisions. Compubox points out that Young landed 41.1 percent while Ali only 18.9 percent of the shots.

And Ali vs Norton 3

Overall, Ali landed 199 of 709 punches while Norton landed 286 of 635 punches, per Bob Canobbio's CompuBox statistics.

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