McCarty or Ibeabuchi??

[Willie Pep 229]

Yet McCarty didn't want to fight him. He made it perfectly clear. Did you read the link I posted?

No I did not. I did read the quote you posted (so you told me what the man himself said) and in that quote he said he was following the scantioning body's rules.

I am not interested in reading conformation bias you find on the Internet.

Your opinion is the conventional 21st century wisdom: The color line was drawn because white fighters were afraid of black fighters.

That factiod as been beaten to death for 50 years, and I am sure you can find 20 articles that agree with you, none that agree with me. That doesn't sway me, it is just the PC thing to say.

I have already suffered enough of the redundancy it offers. You and I know the players and events well enough to have our own opinions.

But I say again, if that premise was true, would they not have kept the game segregated, but instead they fought Johnson the moment he said yes?

Johnson was in no position to contest any of it and they could have left him to wilt away in South America, and easily moved their 'white champion' into the undisputed slot and JJ would have been ignored.

But no, what did these racist whites actually do? These 'frightened' white men rushed to Cuba just to fight him as soon as he was avaiable.*

* Be honest, between late 1912 until April 1915 in Hanava, Johnson cherry picked easy opponents in France and then sat on the title without fighting for almost two years until he ran out of money. Then he got beat and the white champion disappeared.

[JAB5239]

No I did not. I did read the quote you posted (so you told me what the man himself said) and in that quote he said he was following the scantioning body's rules.

I am not interested in reading conformation bias you find on the Internet.

Your opinion is the conventional 21st century wisdom: The color line was drawn because white fighters were afraid of black fighters.

That factiod as been beaten to death for 50 years, and I am sure you can find 20 articles that agree with you, none that agree with me. That doesn't sway me, it is just the PC thing to say.

I have already suffered enough of the redundancy it offers. You and I know the players and events well enough to have our own opinions.

But I say again, if that premise was true, would they not have kept the game segregated, but instead they fought Johnson the moment he said yes?

Johnson was in no position to contest any of it and they could have left him to wilt away in South America, and easily moved their 'white champion' into the undisputed slot and JJ would have been ignored.

But no, what did these racist whites actually do? These 'frightened' white men rushed to Cuba just to fight him as soon as he was avaiable.*

* Be honest, between late 1912 until April 1915 in Hanava, Johnson cherry picked easy opponents in France and then sat on the title without fighting for almost two years until he ran out of money. Then he got beat and the white champion disappeared.

No, that's not what he said at all.
When I accepted the heavy-weight championship belt, I agreed to an unwritten clause that I should never fight a negro [...] Well, I'm going to live up to my contract.",[46] and that he would not fight Johnson "under any circumstances.”"[17]

He wasn't abiding by any sactioning body.

Now I will respectfully ask again.....if there were no "white heavyweight championship" would McCarty have fought Johnson for the true heavyweight title?

Funny thing is, he already broke this rule when he fought Jeff Clark.

[JAB5239]

No I did not. I did read the quote you posted (so you told me what the man himself said) and in that quote he said he was following the scantioning body's rules.

I am not interested in reading conformation bias you find on the Internet.

Your opinion is the conventional 21st century wisdom: The color line was drawn because white fighters were afraid of black fighters.

That factiod as been beaten to death for 50 years, and I am sure you can find 20 articles that agree with you, none that agree with me. That doesn't sway me, it is just the PC thing to say.

I have already suffered enough of the redundancy it offers. You and I know the players and events well enough to have our own opinions.

But I say again, if that premise was true, would they not have kept the game segregated, but instead they fought Johnson the moment he said yes?

Johnson was in no position to contest any of it and they could have left him to wilt away in South America, and easily moved their 'white champion' into the undisputed slot and JJ would have been ignored.

But no, what did these racist whites actually do? These 'frightened' white men rushed to Cuba just to fight him as soon as he was avaiable.*

* Be honest, between late 1912 until April 1915 in Hanava, Johnson cherry picked easy opponents in France and then sat on the title without fighting for almost two years until he ran out of money. Then he got beat and the white champion disappeared.

Pep, what are your thoughts on Johnson ducking McCarty as the other poster claimed? Just or unjust. Because we wouldn't even be talking about this again except for that. I wanted to to about a contrast of eras between two fighters who's careers were cut short and what may have been.

[Biledriver]

No I did not. I did read the quote you posted (so you told me what the man himself said) and in that quote he said he was following the scantioning body's rules.

I am not interested in reading conformation bias you find on the Internet.

Your opinion is the conventional 21st century wisdom: The color line was drawn because white fighters were afraid of black fighters.

That factiod as been beaten to death for 50 years, and I am sure you can find 20 articles that agree with you, none that agree with me. That doesn't sway me, it is just the PC thing to say.

I have already suffered enough of the redundancy it offers. You and I know the players and events well enough to have our own opinions.

But I say again, if that premise was true, would they not have kept the game segregated, but instead they fought Johnson the moment he said yes?

Johnson was in no position to contest any of it and they could have left him to wilt away in South America, and easily moved their 'white champion' into the undisputed slot and JJ would have been ignored.

But no, what did these racist whites actually do? These 'frightened' white men rushed to Cuba just to fight him as soon as he was avaiable.*

* Be honest, between late 1912 until April 1915 in Hanava, Johnson cherry picked easy opponents in France and then sat on the title without fighting for almost two years until he ran out of money. Then he got beat and the white champion disappeared.

So basically your "thang" is playing Captain-Save-A-Ho for the poor oppressed melanin deficient set. Noted for future reference as, much like case of Dr. Z, I'll now read every post you make as coming through that filter.

[Willie Pep 229]

So basically your "thang" is playing Captain-Save-A-Ho for the poor oppressed melanin deficient set. Noted for future reference as, much like case of Dr. Z, I'll now read every post you make as coming through that filter.

Who called you up this morning and told you, you needed to advise me of your intentions?

[Willie Pep 229]

No, that's not what he said at all.
When I accepted the heavy-weight championship belt, I agreed to an unwritten clause that I should never fight a negro [...] Well, I'm going to live up to my contract.",[46] and that he would not fight Johnson "under any circumstances.”"[17]

He wasn't abiding by any sactioning body.

Now I will respectfully ask again.....if there were no "white heavyweight championship" would McCarty have fought Johnson for the true heavyweight title?

Funny thing is, he already broke this rule when he fought Jeff Clark.

"Contract" -- same thing.

I'm lost! I thought he died in his next fight. So how could he break his word before he gave it?

[Willie Pep 229]

Pep, what are your thoughts on Johnson ducking McCarty as the other poster claimed? Just or unjust. Because we wouldn't even be talking about this again except for that. I wanted to to about a contrast of eras between two fighters who's careers were cut short and what may have been.

I doubt that. JJ liked money and in my opinion wanted a popular white guy to best. IMO JJ would have fought one 'Jeffries' after another until he lost.

I don't think white fighters were afraid of black fighters. I don't believe black fighters were afraid of white fighters.

I don't think any fighter is a coward. Everyone who climb through the ropes is courageous and should be respected.

Do fighters duck other fighters? I don't believe that.

Do fighters duck a fight they don't want? Yes, I believe that happened.

There is a difference.

Not sure when JJ could have ducked McCarty anyway. McCarty won the (brand new) white title in January of 1913 while JJ was aressted in October, and then again in November, of 1912. JJ was then convicted in May 1913 and fled the country in June or July of 1913.

So when exactly could anyone have even thought such a fight should occur?

Nah, no duck. McCarty wasn't ready 'gate wise' until they made up the bogus title to award him. By then JJ was not in a 'legal' position to fight anyone.

Stop calling fighters cowards !

[JAB5239]

I doubt that. JJ liked money and in my opinion wanted a popular white guy to best. IMO JJ would have fought one 'Jeffries' after another until he lost.

I don't think white fighters were afraid of black fighters. I don't believe black fighters were afraid of white fighters.

I don't think any fighter is a coward. Everyone who climb through the ropes is courageous and should be respected.

Do fighters duck other fighters? I don't believe that.

Do fighters duck a fight they don't want? Yes, I believe that happened.

There is a difference.

Not sure when JJ could have ducked McCarty anyway. McCarty won the (brand new) white title in January of 1913 while JJ was aressted in October, and then again in November, of 1912. JJ was then convicted in May 1913 and fled the country in June or July of 1913.

So when exactly could anyone have even thought such a fight should occur?

Nah, no duck. McCarty wasn't ready 'gate wise' until they made up the bogus title to award him. By then JJ was not in a 'legal' position to fight anyone.

Stop calling fighters cowards !

I don't believe any fighter is a coward, and I'm glad we seem to be on the same page now. I was responding to Z's allegation of Johnson ducking. I didn't bring the "white championship " up either I don't believe. My point with you was there was only one champion, Johnson. Whites made up a title because they wouldn't (for whatever reasons) fight blacks. Blacks made the colored title up because they weren't allowed to fight for the heavyweight title. That didn't change much when Johnson became champion either unfortunately.

[Biledriver]

Who called you up this morning and told you, you needed to advise me of your intentions?

You did the moment you opened your cu mpdumpster and started with the "Who will think of the oppressed whi te people?" bullshi t. Know your role, Gov'ner Wallace.

[Bronson66]

"McCarty became the white champ on New Year’s Day in 1913. Soon after, in an interview with the Cincinnati Enquirer, he has quoted as saying he had “no use for a Negro” and would not fight Jack Johnson “under any circumstances.”

Sounds the other way around to me.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...b9xuZSF4lj1yO/

That being said, Luther was more unproven and not as polished or experienced as Ike at their respective times of demise.

Your own article has McCarty wanting no part of Johnson, even after Johnson called for the fight.

Johnson sent a telegram to Tommy Burns , who was promoting in Calgary Canada ,offering to defend his title there against McCarty,Burns who was promoting Arthur Pelkey at the time, and had plans to match him with McCarty, for the White Heavyweight crown,which he later did, wanted nothing to do with the prospect of Johnson turning up and stealing his thunder. Knocking off one of his meal tickets and making a proposed match between the 2 white boxers redundant.
He sent a reply saying nothing doing,and Johnson's offer of a defence in Canada never came to fruition.
Johnson was 35 when he made the offer.

"The original opponent of McCarty was to have been Tommy Burns, who had offered Luther $10,000 win ,lose ,or draw to come to Calgary and defend his synthetic title.
Its likely that Burns never had any intention of facing McCarty and was just drumming up publicity, this seems to have been confirmed when he abruptly pulled out of the fight and announced his protege Arthur Pelkey would instead challenge McCarty. Burns not only promoted Pelkey he had an interest in the local Stadium.
At this point the real heavyweight champion Jack Johnson , on his uppers in France, declared he would be willing to come to Calgary and defend his title against McCarty.
Burns ,who had now taken over the promotional reins of the fight, gave an interview in the Calgary Daily Herald . He grandly dismissed Johnson's offer with the statement.

"There is absolutely no reason why I should make this match,Johnson has not conducted himself in a gentlemanly manner at all since gaining the title,and,now that I am a match maker I am only putting on matches which are between men of good character and clean living fellows."
I hope this settles this.