Why did Ali struggle so much against Norton?

[Bronson66]

Eddie Futch knew how to beat Ali, he taught Norton the essentially same way he did with Frazier.

He taught Norton to neutralise the jab by jabbing simultaneously with Ali,and working the body.
Frazier did not utilise the jab at all,his plan was to slip Ali's jab , stay on Ali's chest and work the body to make the arms come down,then go to work on the head.

[Dr. Z]

Norton punched hard but Ali liked facing hitters. He wasn't fast, he wasn't smooth. He wasn't mentally anything special.

What was it about Norton that Ali struggled with. Did he say?

In truth Ali struggled against good jabbers, Don't believe me? Watch the Jones, Lyle, Young and Holmes fights. Now Norton's jab was excellent.

At ALL stages of his career Pre- prime, prime, slightly past his prime, and post prime, Ali's low guard invited this punch to land.

IMO, Norton had the second best jab Ali faced...and out boxed him. The score cards were bad in their 3rd fight. Norton clearly won it. They were also bad as he lost the Young fight on fair score cards. Ali had to come from behind to score the TKO over Lyle. Many thought it was a questionable stoppage! Gifted on the scorecards and refs Ali was..

He fairly edged Doug Jones 6-4 on points. And he did not win a minute of ANY round vs Holmes.

[GhostofDempsey]

He taught Norton to neutralise the jab by jabbing simultaneously with Ali,and working the body.
Frazier did not utilise the jab at all,his plan was to slip Ali's jab , stay on Ali's chest and work the body to make the arms come down,then go to work on the head.

He taught Frazier to time Ali when he dropped his right too low to deliver an uppercut.

[QueensburyRules]

Norton punched hard but Ali liked facing hitters. He wasn't fast, he wasn't smooth. He wasn't mentally anything special.

What was it about Norton that Ali struggled with. Did he say?

- - While not quite shot yet, Ali lost a lot of his mojo vs Joe. Ken was a very active fighter who kept Ali busier than he wanted, and then got his jaw busted.

In short, Ali had no power to keep Ken off him.

[automaton89]

Who was Nortons second best win?

[Dr. Z]

Who was Nortons second best win?

Probably Quarry or Young. Other notably wins are Bobbick, Kirkman, and Garcia. He whipped Ali and lost via razor's edge to a prime Larry Holmes.

[them_apples]

Because Norton took Alis jab away, itā€™s one thing he did well. Joe Louis used the same move. Norton did the same thing to Holmes.

both Ali and Holmes worked off the jab. They didnā€™t have particularly strong hooks and uppercuts. They would set oponents up with the jab and right cross. Without a jab they really arenā€™t too effective.

[billeau2]

Norton punched hard but Ali liked facing hitters. He wasn't fast, he wasn't smooth. He wasn't mentally anything special.

What was it about Norton that Ali struggled with. Did he say?

Great thread. Norton was a supreme athlete. Great football player, had a lot of strength and was probably more mobile than Foreman (for example). Ali had incredible natural abilities, like reflexes, speed... It allowed him to have some advantages over fighters whom, while gifted, were less naturally gifted with these more basic qualities. Foreman, Lyle, Frazier, Liston (when Ali fought him...not generally) as a representative sample, were all talented fighters, with strength, will, and other qualities, but not Ali's prenatural speed and reflexes.

I believe Norton's athletic qualities acted to neutralize Ali's gifts. Norton's fast feet, versus Ali's hand speed. His unorthodox, but effective pressure, shutting down Ali's reflex actions. Keeping in mind, Norton was not strong enough to have the same effect with his pressure on Foreman.

Them Apples also made an excellent point about how Nortons body positioning effected Ali's jab. Archie Moore used this positioning as well, the shoulder protects the chin, in profile, back foot resets... the jabber has to constantly reset his position. Norton had the fast feel to compliment this positioning.

[Bronson66]

Great thread. Norton was a supreme athlete. Great football player, had a lot of strength and was probably more mobile than Foreman (for example). Ali had incredible natural abilities, like reflexes, speed... It allowed him to have some advantages over fighters whom, while gifted, were less naturally gifted with these more basic qualities. Foreman, Lyle, Frazier, Liston (when Ali fought him...not generally) as a representative sample, were all talented fighters, with strength, will, and other qualities, but not Ali's prenatural speed and reflexes.

I believe Norton's athletic qualities acted to neutralize Ali's gifts. Norton's fast feet, versus Ali's hand speed. His unorthodox, but effective pressure, shutting down Ali's reflex actions. Keeping in mind, Norton was not strong enough to have the same effect with his pressure on Foreman.

I don't think Norton had fast feet in the ring,his footwork was described as the," trailing leg being in a bucket ,"very similar to Bob Foster's.
That's why he was vulnerable when you backed him up.

HE'S NOT PRETTY, HE'S JUST PERSISTENT - Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com

[Bronson66]

Because Norton took Alis jab away, itās one thing he did well. Joe Louis used the same move. Norton did the same thing to Holmes.

both Ali and Holmes worked off the jab. They didnāt have particularly strong hooks and uppercuts. They would set oponents up with the jab and right cross. Without a jab they really arenāt too effective.

Holmes had a great right uppercut,one of the best. Holmes had a torn left biceps muscle going into that fight,but he still made effective use of it.
Norton neutralised Alis jab by jabbing simultaneously with him.
Holmes didnt have much of a hook.
Tell Bonavena Ali didn't have much of a left hook.