Marciano considered a heavy hitter?

[Chr0nic]

he punched alot that might have somethin to do with ko'ing peeps past prime

[mickey malone]

Malone is clearly trolling at this point and has been doing so or quite a while now.I assume he thinks this is the only way to counter my arguments,trolling the troll(even though I am clearly not a troll).

It doesn't work Malone,simple facts are easy to check up on and you made a ****** claim and it turned out to be completely off the mark and not even close.

You still haven't explained how Rocky Marciano has a greater resume than Charles "Sonny" Liston


And in response to TheGreatA,you claim that Lyle, Quarry and Shavers are overrated "due to their association with Ali",well can you now finally admit that Joe frazier is also overrated due to his association with Ali?






You really need to get over me Gabby.I know you are still hurting like a victim of a verbal raping but like I already told you,it's getting very worrying now.I really do hope that Poet hasn't made that much of an impression on you.

Marciano's resume wasn't a lot better than Liston's, but he was never KO'd and never quit.. He never disappointed his fans in the way Liston disgracefully did..
What we have to remember here, is that Sonny didn't like getting hit, and that Marciano didn't give a ***..

[mickey malone]

I'm not so sure about Williams, Folley, Machen being "mediocre" compared to Lyle, Shavers & Quarry. In fact I think the latter get overrated while the former get underrated.

Machen early on was a puncher, until running into the fists of Ingemar Johansson. From then on he became a defensive specialist. Even at an old age he was good enough to beat a younger, undefeated Jerry Quarry.

His undefeated run before losing to Johansson was very impressive in my opinion, with wins over contenders Nino Valdes, Hurricane Jackson, Bob Baker, Johnny Summerlin, Joey Maxim, John Holman and a draw with Folley.

Folley was one of the best textbook boxers at the time, and avoided by all young contenders. If not for a suspect chin, he could have been a champ. The first Cooper fight was a bit of a hometown decision in my opinion, and he went onto destroy Cooper in a rematch.

During his 17 year career he scored wins over Eddie Machen, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo, Nino Valdes, Wayne Bethea Doug Jones, Bob Foster, Bob Cleroux, Mike DeJohn, Henry Cooper, Henry Clark... That's a very solid list of contenders.

Cleveland Williams was the big puncher of his time. He was avoided and didn't get too many fights but he did KO Ernie Terrell, the only time Terrell was KO'd aside from his very last fight. Most observers thought he had the better of Machen and Terrell in the rematch but he didn't receive the decision. He was about to fight Terrell again for the WBA version of the heavyweight title, until being shot by a police officer and nearly dying. He was never the same after that.

On film it's clear that he had awesome speed and power and he also had no stamina problems, unlike a certain Earnie Shavers.

Lyle, Quarry and Shavers were a solid bunch of contenders but they get overrated due to their association with Ali.

Informative as ever, A.. Maybe I've appeared to underrate them in order to get my argument across... But I'd still have a stack of money on my 3 to beat his 3, any day of the week..

[Spartacus Sully]

Marciano not so much a heavy hitter more so a powerful hitter. where when you get hit you feel your muscles being crushed between his fists and the bone.

on a side note marciano would have eaten listons still beating heart right out of his chest.

[TheGreatA]

Informative as ever, A.. Maybe I've appeared to underrate them in order to get my argument across... But I'd still have a stack of money on my 3 to beat his 3, any day of the week..

I think Lyle and Shavers would KO Folley but Folley would possibly outbox Quarry, after all Jimmy Ellis did. Lyle and Shavers would have problems with Machen for the same reasons as they had trouble with Jimmy Young and a young Quarry did lose to an older Machen. Cleveland Williams vs Lyle/Shavers could go either way, Quarry might have what it takes to beat him since he was good against punchers although none as fast as Williams.

People always say the 1950's contenders were horrible but I think it's mostly due to people not having seen too much film of them.

Look at Bob Baker for example (shorter man, all white trunks), fighting against the sloppy but hard-hitting Nino Valdes:



I think he could hold his own against contenders of any era.

[Benny Leonard]

Marciano's resume wasn't a lot better than Liston's, but he was never KO'd and never quit.. He never disappointed his fans in the way Liston disgracefully did..
What we have to remember here, is that Sonny didn't like getting hit, and that Marciano didn't give a ***..

Fighters are more likely to disappoint their fans when they are past their prime. We never saw Marciano show up out of shape because he was always in shape which was a credit to him...and we never saw him slide off because he retired right before the great fall when fighters become more vulnerable on the slide from their prime. And for never being knocked out...well, he didn't fight big HWs like Ali in their prime. It's also about who you fought. Frazier was knocked out by Foreman, someone Marciano most likely gets KO'd against as well. I even think Liston could most likely knock out Marciano.
It's about who you fight and how dangerous they are.


Marciano also didn't fight the fighters Liston fought.

I would say it is much easier fighting past prime Light-Heavyweights that were already defeated many times over including being knocked out in their past than fresher fighters, especially bigger fighters that are good.

[Spartacus Sully]

I would say it is much easier fighting past prime Light-Heavyweights that were already defeated many times over including being knocked out in their past.
It is certainly a confidence booster to fight someone like that.

like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight and beat former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

how many did liston beat? 1? to get his title then lost it after how many defense's? 1?

[Benny Leonard]

like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

Ezzard Charles was a LH who won the HW crown because most of the fighters were small in that area. And Louis was SHOT, Charles was past his prime and had already been knocked out by Walcott who was also knocked out years before by a past prime Joe Louis. Charles, Walcott, and Charles were also under 200 pound HWs. All of them went through wars before facing Marciano.

[Spartacus Sully]

but they were all still undisputed heavy weight title holders at one point in time.

where as Liston only fought and beat Patterson then almost immediately proceeded to lose his title.

im not saying Marciano's resume was much better im just saying it was better.

as far as power, stamina, and recovery liston dosnt even touch on what marciano had and after 5 rounds i dont even think linston would know what to do anymore because regardless of what he did it wouldnt stop the rock.

[Benny Leonard]

but they were all still undisputed heavy weight title holders at one point in time.

where as Liston only fought and beat Patterson then almost immediately proceeded to lose his title.

Look at the era...that's a big part of it. And Louis was just a name on the resume. That wasn't JOE LOUIS. Wlad can go around beating up right now Ali, Frazier, Norton, etc. to get HOF fighters on his resume but it won't mean anything. Just names.

Again, under 200 pound fighters that started below 185 as well...except for maybe Walcott...not sure with that one. And Walcott's career was up and down.


Liston lost his title to Cassius Clay/Muhamamd Ali...the Greatest HW fighter of All Time and maybe #2 under SRR as the greatest Fighter boxing has had.
Liston was also past his prime and was avoided until Patterson finally gave him his shot. Liston lived a hard life and was always going to wear out quicker.
What age did Rocky retire?
Liston's age is disputed and he could have been about 36 (or something like that) by the time he fought Clay. And again, he fought possibly the Greatest HW of All Time.



Marciano doesn't get past a Prime Liston's jab. Lison is a Big HW compared to the rest of Marciano's opponents. Bigger, Stronger, more Powerful, and could take a better punch in his prime than the big name opponents Marciano fought. Marciano never fought someone like Sonny Liston.