Harry Greb, the true Goat

[Slugfester]

Every white Hall of fame fighter from 1904 to say 1918 or so from lightweight to heavyweight save Stanley Ketchel. I don't believe he fought any of them. Looking at the fighters Langford did fight I'd say he couldn't dare be accused of ducking anyone.

And even Ketchel was an exhibition at a sporting club.

[JAB5239]

So in other words, he went the distance with Ketchel and no white fighter at the hall of fame level can be accused of ducking Sam.

I think Ketchel is over rated. Fellow middle weight Frank Klaus has a better record and beat Ketchel. Along with Papke, Carpentier and Dillion! That is four hall of fame guys. Yet I have never seen a historian who specalized on Klaus. Film on Klaus does exist!

There was that little thing back then called the color line. It's well documented. A fighter like Greb had no problem with it because he was fearless. Ketchel I would argue did duck Sam by not putting his title on the line when they fought. Sam had to carry him to try and secure a shot at the middleweight championship.

Just out of curiosity, did Klaus, Papke, Carpentier or Dillon fight Langford? We both know the answer to thar. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien did fight Langford at the tail end of his career, but it was well know O'Brien did not draw the color line and would fight just about anyone.

[cfang]

I don’t think Langford carrying ketchel is a fact. There are conflicting reports of that fight and many say it was close. Ketchel was a great fighter and it’s not hard to believe that fight was close and on the level.

[Dr. Z]

There was that little thing back then called the color line. It's well documented. A fighter like Greb had no problem with it because he was fearless. Ketchel I would argue did duck Sam by not putting his title on the line when they fought. Sam had to carry him to try and secure a shot at the middleweight championship.

Just out of curiosity, did Klaus, Papke, Carpentier or Dillon fight Langford? We both know the answer to thar. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien did fight Langford at the tail end of his career, but it was well know O'Brien did not draw the color line and would fight just about anyone.

Well, Ketchel and O'Brien did not. It was Jack Johnson who avoided Langford for 1909 - 1915.

Papke? I am not sure. The color line applied mostly to heavyweights as you know or did not realize, the middle weight color line was broken in 1899!.

By 1910, Sam was fighting heavyweights.

Using a poll of 13 NY and Philadelphia newspapers, 7 had Langford ahead, 4 Ketchel, and 2 had it a draw. Thus, the mark of a Langford newspaper win. Both had contracted to enter the ring at no more than 165lbs.

[Ivich]

Well, Ketchel and O'Brien did not. It was Jack Johnson who avoided Langford for 1909 - 1915.

Papke? I am not sure. The color line applied mostly to heavyweights as you know or did not realize, the middle weight color line was broken in 1899!.

By 1910, Sam was fighting heavyweights.

As everyone now knows Johnson signed to fight Langford in Australia and posted a bond for the fight the promoter called the fight off.
Langford began fighting heavyweights in1905.

[soul_survivor]

Greb was a very good fighter for his era and of the best....but he isn't the best of all time. Come on now fella!

[QueensburyRules]

I don’t think Langford carrying ketchel is a fact. There are conflicting reports of that fight and many say it was close. Ketchel was a great fighter and it’s not hard to believe that fight was close and on the level.

- - Was only 6 rounds as I recall, an unofficial exhibition to gauge public interest. Thought they agreed to a legit rematch which is the reason Ketchel moved to that ranch setting to free him from his drug use while training for that rematch.

Fantastic fight had they pulled it off.

[JAB5239]

Well, Ketchel and O'Brien did not. It was Jack Johnson who avoided Langford for 1909 - 1915.

Papke? I am not sure. The color line applied mostly to heavyweights as you know or did not realize, the middle weight color line was broken in 1899!.

By 1910, Sam was fighting heavyweights.

Mostly heavyweight, but not exclusively. Tunney wouldn't fight a black man any time during his career. Jack Blackburn was frozen out the light and welterweight title picture even the being one of the very best of his time. Holman Willams, Charley Burley and the rest of the black murderers row like Langford, Wills, Jeanette and McVey had to fight each other repeatedly because they were to dangerous for the best white fighters to take a chance on. Black fighters who became champions like Johnson did it as well.

[Ivich]

Mostly heavyweight, but not exclusively. Tunney wouldn't fight a black man any time during his career. Jack Blackburn was frozen out the light and welterweight title picture even the being one of the very best of his time. Holman Willams, Charley Burley and the rest of the black murderers row like Langford, Wills, Jeanette and McVey had to fight each other repeatedly because they were to dangerous for the best white fighters to take a chance on. Black fighters who became champions like Johnson did it as well.

Johnson twice signed to defend against Jeannette,and signed to defend against both Langford and McVey on each occasion the defences were cancelled by the promoters.The Jeannette fights due to pressure from the NY AC,The Langford and McVey defences due to public opinion turning against Johnson as he had skipped bail.
Holman Williams and Charley Burley could not draw flies to dog ****.
1942
Champ
Zale

1.Moore
2.Burley
3.Williams
4.Tunero
5.Basora
6.Lamotta
7.Chase
8. Booker

43.
Champ
Zale
1.Lamotta
2.Williams
5.Belloise
6.Cerdan

10.Moore

44.
Champ
Zale

1.Lamotta
2.Wiliams
3.Burley
4.Basora

7.Cocoa Kid

45.
Champ
Zale
1.Williams
2.Burley
3.Lamotta
4.Graziano
5.Cerdan

7.Wade
8.Henry
9.Edgar
10.Lytell


46.
Champ
Zale
1.Lamotta
2.Burley
3.Graziano
4.Cerdan
5.Abrams
6.Belloise
7.Edgar
8.Lytell

Zale's title was frozen from 42-44 due to WW2
When he returned to boxing his best days were behind him and he sensibly looked to make the most money for the least risk.
So he by-passed Lamotta,Williams, Burley , ignored Wade,and Lytell and other Murderers Row members and defended against ,wild swinging and big draw Graziano.

[Dr. Z]

Mostly heavyweight, but not exclusively. Tunney wouldn't fight a black man any time during his career. Jack Blackburn was frozen out the light and welterweight title picture even the being one of the very best of his time. Holman Willams, Charley Burley and the rest of the black murderers row like Langford, Wills, Jeanette and McVey had to fight each other repeatedly because they were to dangerous for the best white fighters to take a chance on. Black fighters who became champions like Johnson did it as well.

Oh I agree that Holman Willams and Charley Burley were and victims of the color line, by Sugar Ray Robinson. As was Sam Langford, Sam McVey and Joe Jeannette by Jack Johnson. Harry Wills was a victim too, that blame falls on Dempsey.

In Sam Langfords case I just don't see any Middleweights who were white using the color line against him. Heavyweight is a different story.