Harry Greb, the true Goat

[Dr. Z]

I have Langford #1 based on his wins from lightweight to heavyweight. It's simply unparalleled in my opinion. As far as HOF fighters are concerned I believe Langford had a much harder time getting fights with great "white" fighters which is why he has less names. Not that I would argue with anyone rating Greb or SRR #1 all time. P4p is a matter of opinion at the very top anyway

Who were the great White fighters that Sam Langford missed out on? Well, tell me.

Harry Greb by my count fought the best men around both black and white. He ducked no one. I think he fought six black opponents ( there are likely more that I do not recognize ) other than Norfolk and Flowers who are in the hall of fame.

Langford is just as great and IMO shafted by Jack Johnson who did not give him a title shot.

[JAB5239]

Who were the great White fighters that Sam Langford missed out on? Well, tell me.

Harry Greb by my count fought the best men around both black and white. He ducked no one. I think he fought six black opponents ( there are likely more that I do not recognize ) other than Norfolk and Flowers who are in the hall of fame.

Langford is just as great and IMO shafted by Jack Johnson who did not give him a title shot.

Every white Hall of fame fighter from 1904 to say 1918 or so from lightweight to heavyweight save Stanley Ketchel. I don't believe he fought any of them. Looking at the fighters Langford did fight I'd say he couldn't dare be accused of ducking anyone.

[QueensburyRules]

It is possible some fighters made it to the HOF because they are considered pioneers'; or maybe they gave a few heroic performances but did not achieve stellar heights. I don't know who they are or if they exist. Greb and langford are not two. It is amazing that thousands of peoples' favorite fighters are two they never saw fight and never will. We never saw their faults and everyone who knew them is dead too. They are privileged that no film exists. It allows perfection in myth.

- - Sam has more film footage than Jeffries who was filmed substantially with most lost.

[billeau2]

Yes he did! So did several others.lol

[billeau2]

Boxers are notoriously bad at assessing other boxers & opps. Or at least they are in modern times. Those best I faced articles often had nutty takes.

I suspect they'd be worse at it when all they could go on was what they saw with their eyes in real time.

I have noticed this lol. Worse predictors... lol.

[billeau2]

Think? Him?

Queenie... The thinking man's troll! As opposed to Money man vis a vis ascended, whom never quite ascended from mom's basement.

[JAB5239]

Queenie... The thinking man's troll! As opposed to Money man vis a vis ascended, whom never quite ascended from mom's basement.

........

[Dr. Z]

Every white Hall of fame fighter from 1904 to say 1918 or so from lightweight to heavyweight save Stanley Ketchel. I don't believe he fought any of them. Looking at the fighters Langford did fight I'd say he couldn't dare be accused of ducking anyone.

So in other words, he went the distance with Ketchel and no white fighter at the hall of fame level can be accused of ducking Sam.

I think Ketchel is over rated. Fellow middle weight Frank Klaus has a better record and beat Ketchel. Along with Papke, Carpentier and Dillion! That is four hall of fame guys. Yet I have never seen a historian who specalized on Klaus. Film on Klaus does exist!

[them_apples]

It is possible some fighters made it to the HOF because they are considered pioneers'; or maybe they gave a few heroic performances but did not achieve stellar heights. I don't know who they are or if they exist. Greb and langford are not two. It is amazing that thousands of peoples' favorite fighters are two they never saw fight and never will. We never saw their faults and everyone who knew them is dead too. They are privileged that no film exists. It allows perfection in myth.

I totally agree that this factor encourages Myth. However, once again much of the things we are speaking of is not myth! It is as factual as watching film just a different medium. We don’t have film of Napoleon reaching Moscow, but we know he did.

The fact that 2 things happened: he washed Dempsey in sparring twice (confirmed by Dempsey managers, Greb himself and even Dempsey in a roundabout way as he stated Greb was an extremely formidable fighter. We also know that Greb beat the **** out of Tunney AT LEAST once - which is something nobody ever did before or after. Based on this alone, the contrast in newspaper decisions in regards to who actually won the other bouts hold plenty of merit as well - as we know Greb DID destroy Tunney once, and as soon as the ref and venue was bought and paid for by Tunney the decisions started changing.

Even outside of resume, era, myth etc - these 2 feats alone will tell you he was a special fighter. The other part is the 300 bouts in 13 years or so. Nobody fights that much unless you LOVE fighting. These are characteristics of a great fighter. They often fight too much and won’t stop until it’s too late. In Grebs case he died - and it was injuries from fighting and car crashes that likely brought it on.

[them_apples]

It’s a superb book. I have greb as the goat too. His record is just better than anyone else’s.

There is nothing like it really.