SRR the goat?

[JAB5239]

Was McLarnin his best opponent?

Armstrong was his best opponent, but Ross was a shell of himself in that fight and retired soon after. As a top fighter I would probably say Canzoneri was his best opponent with McLarnin a close second. That is just an opinion though. His resume is stacked with many of the best fighters of that era. He was a truly great fighter.

[billeau2]

As far as common sense you give yourself way too much credit. Someone with common sense does not get online every day to argue with Z year after year.

And if you had to bet and the truth were knowable, you would bet that Walcott won. If you say any different I know you are a liar. Without knowing, you would vote that Walcott won from what you have watched. Right? Nobody is going to look at what is available of that fight and say Louis must have won. Most people are not ****** enough to think Louis won the rest of the fight other than what is shown. Don't come back with typical crap that you would never do such a thing. Because, let's suppose you have to, or you will die. You aren't betting that Louis actually won.You are betting that Walcott must have won. I already know this is true, so go ahead and lie if it is that important.

Arguing with z is fun!

[them_apples]

A ranking of Typical or Classic G.O.A.T picks:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Wille Pep
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Louis
10. Manny Pacquiao
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Jack Johnson
13. Mickey Walker
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Tony Canzoneri
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Gene Tunney
18. Larry Holmes
19. Joe Gans
20. Sugar Ray Leonard
21. Floyd Mayweather
22. Julio Cesar Chavez
23. Jimmy Wilde
24. Rocky Marciano
25. Carlos Monzon
26. Lennox Lewis
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Stanley Ketchel
29. Barney Ross
30. Salvador Sanchez / Roy Jones Jr.


Who would you add?

The thing with Ray is he is talented in many other things that adds to his greatness . It’s similar to Ali in some aspects.

qualities that make a great fighter:

Ray was mean, he likely killed Doyle knowing full well Doyle was hurt or slept in camp but went through with the fight anyways. Of course to the media he played up the “I had a dream the night beforeâ€Â�. The fact is Ray was mean as hell as were a lot of other great boxers. Nobody wants to hear this though. Ray is the same guy who knocked his wife out cold and ran a fulltime brothel above his restaurant. He wasn’t someone you wanted to cross and was extremely competitive.

Ray was a dancer. A dancers body is perfect for boxing. To find a great dancer who loved fighting is a rarity and thats what ray was. His entire style was a subtle dance. Everything he did was a smooth transition making his movements very hard to read. He still managed to do all this and maintain phenominal punching mechanics and balance, not all too different than Joe Louis, though Ray is a smaller quicker fighter they won’t immediately look similar.

Ray also fought and beat a lot of great fighters, went on long unbeaten streaks and jumped up in weight (real weight classes). So he’s got the resume to back it up.

we can only imagine how fast he was at 147 in his prime. If we compare 160 lb Robinson to 160 lb Leonard, Robinson is at the very least just as fast - but a better more polished fighter that had physical talents as well as excellent boxing skill. Most people will compare a 160 lb ray to a 147 prime Leonard, but this isn’t an accurate analysis of speed comparison.

Ray was also a good looking guy so the public loved him. They thought he was a perfect fighter. And although he was a welterweight, he was almost 6 ft. So really Ray had everything going for him and was destined for the history books.

one small note should be made though, competition. Rays was certainly very good - but his best run was done when conscription was in full effect in the usa. Drastically dropping the talent pool in his prime years, and then watching a past prime Ray tango with some very good / great fighters in the latter half of his career. Getting in with Joey Maxim was suicide but he was winning that right up until the heat got to him.

so clearly Ray is an all time great. Not many can compare to him.

However, Greb is just that one guy that loves fighting more than anyone. He had a talent for fighting, almost more so than Robinson, he didn’t have Robinsons style or finesse though - he was rugged and wild did whatever he needed to win. Greb was a genius in terms of fighting. Nobody fought like him before or after. Nobody could prepare for his style. Greb was probably the most eager fighter to have ever existed, its between him and Marciano. Both of them loved fighting so much you could call it passion. Greb had no fear of anyone, he loved fighting so much he could win 40 bouts in a single year. The lights did nothing to him, he fought as much as most guys spar.

Grebs competition was particularly Brutal. Outside of the fact that Greb was fighting so frequently (which really turned him into an animal) Greb was fighting before the war and after the war. The men he got in with were very dangerous and tough fighters - even more fearsome than the foes Robinson faced. Gibbons, Tunney and Norfolk for example.

but mostly its the application of his style. Greb demolished fighters. Meaning they were often one sided massacres because of the way he fought was so unique. The only guys capable of troubling him had to share the ring with him first to get a taste for it, and hope they didn’t get hurt in the process. The triangle theory isn’t always right, but in no world could I see Lamotta not getting battered from post to post by Greb and possibly even getting stopped because of the volume of punches he would be absorbing (ref stoppage, nobody sleeps Lamotta).

in the modern era Pacquiao was similar to this in some ways. He had an awkward style that he made up himself - so nobody knew how to deal with him. Marquez had 4 fights with him allowing him to adjust. The first fight however was nearly finished in round 1.

its clear as day to me, they both fight at 160 and Greb is gonna be on him from the opening bell. The smaller Ray can’t hold him off any better than a 190 lb defensive master gene Tunney. If they have multiple fights and Ray can avoid getting hurt too bad - he may be able to adjust and win a 3rd or 4th fight. He’s talented enough to do this, but it’s only a possibility.

[Slugfester]

The thing with Ray is he is talented in many other things that adds to his greatness . ItâÃÂÃÂs similar to Ali in some aspects.

qualities that make a great fighter:

Ray was mean, he likely killed Doyle knowing full well Doyle was hurt or slept in camp but went through with the fight anyways. Of course to the media he played up the âÃÂÃÂI had a dream the night beforeâÃÂÃÂ. The fact is Ray was mean as hell as were a lot of other great boxers. Nobody wants to hear this though. Ray is the same guy who knocked his wife out cold and ran a fulltime brothel above his restaurant. He wasnâÃÂÃÂt someone you wanted to cross and was extremely competitive.

Ray was a dancer. A dancers body is perfect for boxing. To find a great dancer who loved fighting is a rarity and thats what ray was. His entire style was a subtle dance. Everything he did was a smooth transition making his movements very hard to read. He still managed to do all this and maintain phenominal punching mechanics and balance, not all too different than Joe Louis, though Ray is a smaller quicker fighter they wonâÃÂÃÂt immediately look similar.

Ray also fought and beat a lot of great fighters, went on long unbeaten streaks and jumped up in weight (real weight classes). So heâÃÂÃÂs got the resume to back it up.

we can only imagine how fast he was at 147 in his prime. If we compare 160 lb Robinson to 160 lb Leonard, Robinson is at the very least just as fast - but a better more polished fighter that had physical talents as well as excellent boxing skill. Most people will compare a 160 lb ray to a 147 prime Leonard, but this isnâÃÂÃÂt an accurate analysis of speed comparison.

Ray was also a good looking guy so the public loved him. They thought he was a perfect fighter. And although he was a welterweight, he was almost 6 ft. So really Ray had everything going for him and was destined for the history books.

one small note should be made though, competition. Rays was certainly very good - but his best run was done when conscription was in full effect in the usa. Drastically dropping the talent pool in his prime years, and then watching a past prime Ray tango with some very good / great fighters in the latter half of his career. Getting in with Joey Maxim was suicide but he was winning that right up until the heat got to him.

so clearly Ray is an all time great. Not many can compare to him.

However, Greb is just that one guy that loves fighting more than anyone. He had a talent for fighting, almost more so than Robinson, he didnâÃÂÃÂt have Robinsons style or finesse though - he was rugged and wild did whatever he needed to win. Greb was a genius in terms of fighting. Nobody fought like him before or after. Nobody could prepare for his style. Greb was probably the most eager fighter to have ever existed, its between him and Marciano. Both of them loved fighting so much you could call it passion. Greb had no fear of anyone, he loved fighting so much he could win 40 bouts in a single year. The lights did nothing to him, he fought as much as most guys spar.

Grebs competition was particularly Brutal. Outside of the fact that Greb was fighting so frequently (which really turned him into an animal) Greb was fighting before the war and after the war. The men he got in with were very dangerous and tough fighters - even more fearsome than the foes Robinson faced. Gibbons, Tunney and Norfolk for example.

but mostly its the application of his style. Greb demolished fighters. Meaning they were often one sided massacres because of the way he fought was so unique. The only guys capable of troubling him had to share the ring with him first to get a taste for it, and hope they didnâÃÂÃÂt get hurt in the process. The triangle theory isnâÃÂÃÂt always right, but in no world could I see Lamotta not getting battered from post to post by Greb and possibly even getting stopped because of the volume of punches he would be absorbing (ref stoppage, nobody sleeps Lamotta).

in the modern era Pacquiao was similar to this in some ways. He had an awkward style that he made up himself - so nobody knew how to deal with him. Marquez had 4 fights with him allowing him to adjust. The first fight however was nearly finished in round 1.

its clear as day to me, they both fight at 160 and Greb is gonna be on him from the opening bell. The smaller Ray canâÂÂt hold him off any better than a 190 lb defensive master gene Tunney. If they have multiple fights and Ray can avoid getting hurt too bad - he may be able to adjust and win a 3rd or 4th fight. HeâÂÂs talented enough to do this, but itâÂÂs only a possibility.

Bullseye on your first paragraph. Most champions are mean is my conjecture since a long time. They have excellent reasons for meanness if they want to stay champ. The training itself is mean and where you learn mean things. Learning how to hurt a man more by getting your body weight into a punch is mean and done for mean purposes. No one goes to see a fight for the mercy that might be shown. Offhand, the only mercy I remember in the ring was Ali holding off when he could have given George a final blow on the way down but refrained. Maybe he was just too tired.

Oddly enough, it was Calzaghe who made me pay attention to all fighters being mean. His style in a way was more brutal because he was not a hard hitter. He was committed to hitting you over and over and a headhunter. Slow torture is worse than just getting it done with one powerful punch. Like all fighters, he seemed to enjoy it. I never see fighters agonizing over victories. Agonizing over damage done comes later, if at all, and it probably does come, but only if the opponent is seriously injured. Otherwise the destruction is celebrated. One can maybe not even be a champ--especially long reigning--if they do not care more about winning than they care about opponents. That is why brothers never--or seldom--fight in the ring.

I don't know how Greb does against Robinson. But between ATGs you can always expect a hella tussle I believe.

I am not at all sure Geb would do well today, not because of stylistic reasons, but because he would probably destroy himself in the greater time between bouts on his share of hundred million dollar gates.

What is said of the style Tunney used against Greb? Did he go mano a mano, or hit and run tactics? Either way it is likely Greb controlled the tempo.

[them_apples]

Bullseye on your first paragraph. Most champions are mean is my conjecture since a long time. They have excellent reasons for meanness if they want to stay champ. The training itself is mean and where you learn mean things. Learning how to hurt a man more by getting your body weight into a punch is mean and done for mean purposes. No one goes to see a fight for the mercy that might be shown. Offhand, the only mercy I remember in the ring was Ali holding off when he could have given George a final blow on the way down but refrained. Maybe he was just too tired.

Oddly enough, it was Calzaghe who made me pay attention to all fighters being mean. His style in a way was more brutal because he was not a hard hitter. He was committed to hitting you over and over and a headhunter. Slow torture is worse than just getting it done with one powerful punch. Like all fighters, he seemed to enjoy it. I never see fighters agonizing over victories. Agonizing over damage done comes later, if at all, and it probably does come, but only if the opponent is seriously injured. Otherwise the destruction is celebrated. One can maybe not even be a champ--especially long reigning--if they do not care more about winning than they care about opponents. That is why brothers never--or seldom--fight in the ring.

I don't know how Greb does against Robinson. But between ATGs you can always expect a hella tussle I believe.

I am not at all sure Geb would do well today, not because of stylistic reasons, but because he would probably destroy himself in the greater time between bouts on his share of hundred million dollar gates.

What is said of the style Tunney used against Greb? Did he go mano a mano, or hit and run tactics? Either way it is likely Greb controlled the tempo.

so when he fought tunney, initially Tunney went for Grebs head and paid the price. Greb made him miss and overwhelmed him. But the talent that Tunney is, he kept trying to adapt. By the 4th fight he he would viciously attack grebs body.

Greb sufferred a rib injury at some point, and when he fought the 5th time all Tunney did was re ignite an old injury. But the description was Tunney was landing very hard body shots and had practiced it in camp

[Slugfester]

Hit at a larger target I guess. We would have a so-much-better basis for our speculations if only Greb/Walker had survived. Of all fights that could have been lost, that is the most important to me and to boxing I believe. We have multiple views of almost everyone that was filmed, even fighters earlier than Greb such as Langford. Greb's reputation may not have been as great in his own time. I don't know. Apparently, no one considered it important enough to save. It is said to have been saved, but that does not mean it was not erased later. If anyone found it I assume they could retire.

[DooGee#33]

I have grown into using GOAT as like a rating, and only took notice of this habit when I read this thread.

SRR as GOAT will get no argument out of me

Nor would Floyd

I won't argue with a fellow who says Armstrong or RJJ.

There's plenty of men I believe have made a good enough argument for GOAT status that I wouldn't argue with their fans who call them GOAT, and so when you say things like that, like for example " Pac may have had quite a few stumbles but he makes a good argument for GOAT all the same" You're really using GOAT as a status above ATG and never pinning down a single greatest of all time.



That said ... Aaron Pryor ain't nothing to **** with himself.

I can agree with this approach. When referring to GOAT not everyone has the same criteria. It was just something they sold to the general sports fan.

[DooGee#33]

A ranking of Typical or Classic G.O.A.T picks:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Wille Pep
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Louis
10. Manny Pacquiao
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Jack Johnson
13. Mickey Walker
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Tony Canzoneri
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Gene Tunney
18. Larry Holmes
19. Joe Gans
20. Sugar Ray Leonard
21. Floyd Mayweather
22. Julio Cesar Chavez
23. Jimmy Wilde
24. Rocky Marciano
25. Carlos Monzon
26. Lennox Lewis
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Stanley Ketchel
29. Barney Ross
30. Salvador Sanchez / Roy Jones Jr.


Who would you add?

Terance Crawford would break into the top 30 if he retired today. Sadly he.hasmt had a chance to prove it in this era as much as he could have. Due to the state of boxing during the present day.
Regardless the guy terrified figjters acrossv 3--4 weight classes. Nobody has come close to beating him. I'd make Crawford Mayweather a toss up.

[Marchegiano]

A ranking of Typical or Classic G.O.A.T picks:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Wille Pep
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Louis
10. Manny Pacquiao
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Jack Johnson
13. Mickey Walker
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Tony Canzoneri
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Gene Tunney
18. Larry Holmes
19. Joe Gans
20. Sugar Ray Leonard
21. Floyd Mayweather
22. Julio Cesar Chavez
23. Jimmy Wilde
24. Rocky Marciano
25. Carlos Monzon
26. Lennox Lewis
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Stanley Ketchel
29. Barney Ross
30. Salvador Sanchez / Roy Jones Jr.


Who would you add?

You're either gonna laugh or be annoyed ... actually I might should see the next page of responses before I do this, but given our recent past interections with lists:

SPINKS!

I'll just make this observation and then drop it ,and you.
Nat Fleischer
James P Dawson
JohnLardner
Red Smith
And seven other boxing writers voted for Louis
The two judges,voted for Louis.
The referee gave the verdict to Walcott by a single round.
To me that indicates .a very close fight one which ,not having seen in its entirety I am not prepared to venture a verdict on
Your opinion of me is as important ,and welcome to me as a piece of dog **** on my shoe.
I have no opinion of you, you aren't even on my radar.
I will correct Z's lies when I see them,I do not debate with him and neither will I do so with you in the future.You Z and Queenie are lumped together as far as I am concerned,and I wish you joy of your company.Now **** off!

Why does Nat Fleischer's name carry any more weight than Don King? I hate to detract from your convo, I do agree even, but I just don't respect Nat for **** and wonder why folks do.


Who else sold ratings and was able to keep fans' respect of their opinions?

Who else plagiarized their entire catalog of notable works and gets mentioned as an opinion that might maybe be authentic?

I don't much mention Coleen, though she is IBRO, because her Essays is just a half ass pamphlet version Caramel Color Kings by Smith and absolutely nothing more. I bring this up to show I am consistent and it's no opinion Nat shared or boxer wronged that motivates me. It's simply I do not see rip off authors as good sources or even a better source than my own goofy self. I too read books from people who did more research than me, and then I right what I learned, often ripping pages verbatim, I get it. I do not sell my findings nor do I claim to be the source of those findings found. So, imo, my level researcher but also a real POS human being = not worth a **** opine.


Why I am I wrong here? I don't mean that rhetorically, I am open minded enough to question myself legitimate, I could be wrong but I can't see it so you'd have to help me see it.

[Ivich]

You're either gonna laugh or be annoyed ... actually I might should see the next page of responses before I do this, but given our recent past interections with lists:

SPINKS!





Why does Nat Fleischer's name carry any more weight than Don King? I hate to detract from your convo, I do agree even, but I just don't respect Nat for **** and wonder why folks do.


Who else sold ratings and was able to keep fans' respect of their opinions?

Who else plagiarized their entire catalog of notable works and gets mentioned as an opinion that might maybe be authentic?

I don't much mention Coleen, though she is IBRO, because her Essays is just a half ass pamphlet version Caramel Color Kings by Smith and absolutely nothing more. I bring this up to show I am consistent and it's no opinion Nat shared or boxer wronged that motivates me. It's simply I do not see rip off authors as good sources or even a better source than my own goofy self. I too read books from people who did more research than me, and then I right what I learned, often ripping pages verbatim, I get it. I do not sell my findings nor do I claim to be the source of those findings found. So, imo, my level researcher but also a real POS human being = not worth a **** opine.


Why I am I wrong here? I don't mean that rhetorically, I am open minded enough to question myself legitimate, I could be wrong but I can't see it so you'd have to help me see it.

Because Fleischer was a licensed judge and referee who officiated at several world title fights,had spent a lifetime watching fights and knew what he was looking at and King was a promoter who knew nothing about the sweet science.
Can we have a verified source that shows Fleischer ever sold ratings,or is that just some random character assassination gratuitously thrown in for laughs and giggles?
I'm neither laughing or annoyed, I don't take you seriously.