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One thing Marciano was great at

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  • #11
    Originally posted by them_apples View Post
    Those 15th round furious assaults he would dish out on someone he was trying to knock out. Thats not an effort of someone tired trying really hard: no its someone with 20 more rounds in the tank wasting as much fuel as possible trying to destroy someone.

    if fights were long enough Marciano beats everyone
    Yeah. Ridiculous stamina, in fact; and he wasn't in there pacing himself and conserving energy either. Probably had the best gas tank of any heavyweight. Got to disagree with him beating anyone given enough time: He was easy to hit and cut/bled a too much. Against a better grade of opponent that what he faced (weak era) he'd lose his share because of it. Especially if fast forwarded to a later era where there was a much quicker hook for bleeding or shipping punches. If the second Ezzard Charles fight had occurred in, say, 1983, that fight would have been stopped on cuts with Charles the winner.

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    • #12
      I will have to think some more about Mass and Acceleration in this context. A sponge going 500 mph would probably kill a man while breaking his neck. A semi truck going 2 mph will do the same thing to a man's head if it is held in place for a split second at impact

      Slower punches are easier to dodge, taking steam off them even if they do land. Fast punches are harder to dodge, keeping their steam, in a practical sense.

      Comment


      • #13
        Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

        Maybe against men his size and typically those older than him. Rocky had 15 round stamina and IMO could go 20 rounds or more.

        But he is really limited the in a sense. He had heart and the mindset to endure much.

        These old time heavyweights Rocky's size ( under 210 pounds ) are best talked about in their own time.
        Those who hold such ignorant views are best talked about in the NHB general section. besides, the first time Marciano folded one of these big modern stiffs, they would be shorter than he was!

        Comment


        • #14
          Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post
          I'm not so taken by size. From its inception to now weight divisions are really a superfluous thing. An idea devised as a logical means to duck grown into a false equivalency that claims fairness.

          There is no period where smaller guys are losing to larger guys en-mass and so a division is created that allows said smaller foes to shine. There is only the repetition of what we have seen at "bridgerweight". The claim smaller guys are having a hard time and so this new division or divisions will allow them an avenue to display their skills. Meanwhile said smaller guys said new division was meant to save from said larger men continue to fight for and win the titles of the larger division.

          We could have had reach divisions, speed divisions, ring size divisions, etc. We have weight divisions and pretend weight is far more important than the other two absolutely vital ingredients for the physics of force only because once upon a time a man claimed to be a champion within a weight range and that man never thought to try the same BS with arm length or any other logical claim to fairness.

          F=MA

          But in boxing M is more important than A. M and dividing by M saves lives. A, unimportant. Fools with a lot of A just get to brag about it, they don't have to fight anyone else with a lot of A at any point in their career if they don't want to. They will have to fight in equal Ms though. Ain't no existence or even a call for any form of measuring, rating, or dividing based on A, but that M though, that's a killer. That M can get you the favor period, this thread is case-in-point. What's the argument against Marciano? All weight? 100% about mass? That's how important M is, someone should phone science and let them know how much more important M is to the sum in the equation M times A = Sum



          So, yes, I'd challenge the idea behind weight divisions in the first place. You guys would tell me today a SWW would be slaughtered by a CW if I posted that fantasy fight but abouts the 150s fighting and beating abouts the 200s is not unheard of in the era before scheduled ends.

          You guys likewise would treat me like I'm talking crazy if I suggested speed is as deadly as mass using any character as representatives rather than the words. If I suggested Manny has as much chance of killing you with a punch as Wlad you'd laugh at me.


          I think I've made my point pretty clear with some nice examples but I want to clarify something. This is not a small/speed vs large/mass argument I mean to bring. I used speed as my main vehicle to highlight how hyper important boxing pretends mass is and how much boxing ignores other aspects of even a simple thing like power let alone the entirety the ballet of physics that is a fight.

          No one ever talks about speed in relation to power, even though speed is as important as weight. Conversely weight alone can get you the nod by fans and pundits in would-be matchups that are meant to consider not just the entire ballet of physics but also the characters of the men themselves.


          It's bull**** and I'll take a step toward being aggressive with this stance by saying something like "I don't think Marciano makes rounds with SHW" is disappointingly intellectually lazy. Especially coming from smart fellows like Bundana


          Weight, speed, trajectory, all equal in delivering force. Am I talking about throwing a punch? Taking a step? Blocking? Slipping? ... Yes, the answer is yes, I am. All of it.

          Kinematic chains, I'm literally still the only poster I have ever seen post about them because mass is so important, it matters more than speed, trajectory, or even the third ****ing law of physics for Christ's sake. Get me?




          There is a ****-ton more to consider beyond "Him bigger doe" Or even "Him a LOT bigger doe", and Marciano worked very hard for what he had. To just devalue that with intellectually lazy drivel is, well, a disappointment.


          It is absolutely conceivable Marciano could use his stamina alone to beat all HWs who came after, and, only equally as intellectually lazy as writing him off based on size alone, and, the only reason anyone is so comfortable being so stupid about size is because no one challenges the notion. It's stupid, what you said was stupid, all the respect in the world, Bun is not a stupid person at all, but that is a stupid stance and it's about time someone taught you guys just how stupid you sound when you mentally jerkoff over weight.
          I mean as guys got bigger, gloves got bigger, rounds got smaller, and technique became dampened to being able to swing the punch more than throw it accurately. Guys who show older skills today, do so in spite of these changes to how force is applied today. But EVEN despite this there still is no trend where the heavyweight champions are getting bigger! Some are bigger, some are not. There have always been good big men in the heavyweight division, they did not, as a rule dominate. leroy Jones, John Tate were big heavyweights...

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post



            It's absolutely conceivable that Rocky, a man 187 pounds, has the chin and size to beat much bigger men ( who hit a lot harder than Moore And Walcott, his best punchers faced ) because he never did. He would out box them for sure! The Guys Wlad's, Lewis and Vitali's size are dead meat say the Marciano fanboys. Rocky would knock them out. Never-mind the fact that it took Rocky on average 9 rounds to beat the small , much older men in his title fights.

            This is an epic mis-match. Equally a mis-mismatch is getting through to these Marciano fan boy's

            I must ask you, where are these men who are fighting at the weight of light heavyweight today in the modern heavyweight division? I tell you they are missing out and all of the Saudi oil money

            I will end with your reasoning. In the movies Rocky would surely knock them all out.






            Yes because: Marciano walked around at about 220. He could have come in a lot heavier. In his time the idea was to come in as light as possible. It does not mean that marciano could not weigh in heavier.

            Comment


            • #16
              I remembered an old list I made 4 years ago and decided to do some basic statistical operations with comments. The list is only of Marciano's 43 KOs.

              The house word processor made it necessary to insert the original list into a table, if I wanted it to look tidy. The processor does not take big gaps without a character in each space, so columns and their headings got compressed to the front of the line. First list is backwards, second list forwards, expressing the same thing in reverse order.


              KO Rd...X-X0/42 [not 43]...(X-X0)2


              Moore—9 5 25

              Cockell—9 5 25

              Charles—8 4 16

              LaStarza—11 7 49

              Walcott—1 3 9

              Walcott—13 9 81

              Mathews—2 2 4

              Reynolds—3 1 1

              Buonvino—2 2 4

              Savold—5 1 1

              Louis—8 4 16

              Beshore—4 0 0

              Layne—6 2 4

              Henri—9 5 25

              Mitchel—2 2 4

              Simmons—8 4 16

              Wilson—1 3 9

              Shkor—6 2 4

              Buonvino—10 6 36

              Eatman—3 1 1

              Vingo—6 2 4

              Muscato—5 1 1

              Richards—2 2 4

              Dominic—2 2 4

              DiGiorgio—4 0 0

              Louthis—3 1 1

              Haft—3 1 1

              Evans—3 1 1

              Walls—3 1 1

              Donato—1 3 9

              Pretzie—5 1 1

              Ferron—2 2 4

              Connolly—1 3 9

              Jefferson—2 2 4

              Cardone—1 3 9

              Hardeman—1 3 9

              Jackson—1 3 9

              Weeks—1 3 9

              Ross—1 3 9

              Quinn—3 1 1

              Edwards—1 3 9

              Bilazarian—1 3 9
              ​​
              Epperson--3 1 1


              Round KO....................X-X0.................. (X-X0)2
              3 1 1
              1 3 9
              1 3 9
              1 3 9
              1 3 9
              1 3 9
              2 2 4
              5 1 1
              1 3 9
              3 1 1
              3 1 1
              3 1 1
              3 1 1
              4 0 0
              2 2 4
              2 2 4
              5 1 1
              6 2 4
              10 6 36
              6 2 4
              1 3 9
              8 4 16
              2 2 4
              9 5 25
              6 2 4
              4 0 0
              8 4 16
              5 1 1
              2 2 4
              9 5 25
              6 2 4
              4 0 0
              8 4 16
              5 1 1
              2 2 4
              3 1 1
              2 2 4
              13 9 81
              1 3 9
              11 7 49
              8 4 16
              9 5 25
              9 5 25
              175 112 402
              The bottom row of each column is the sum of that column.

              One more time let's take a look at his KOs, listed horizontally this time from longest to briefest. This is probably the best visual representation that can be seen all at once.

              13 11 10...9 9 9...8 8 8...6 6 6...5 5 5...4 4...3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3...2 2 2 2 2 2 2...1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

              Rock had no KOs in rounds 7, 12, 14, 15, because they could not hang with him that far.

              **********

              M0=1=mode. Single round Rock KOd the most opponents in.

              M=4.069= arithmetic mean. Average of how long it took to KO them. Almost exactly 4, which I used instead, with little loss of accuracy.

              V=9.57=variance.The sum of all the (X-X0)2/42. The square root of this is the standard deviation

              SD=3.09=standard deviation. A measure of the dispersion of the 43 samples.

              * * * * * *

              Rock's standard deviation is small--i.e., a big majority of his KOs are grouped together around early rounds.

              From the lists and the calculations several things are made clear. He had the most KOs in round 1, 3, 2, in that order. That is, 60% of his KOs occurred in the first three rounds.

              Another thing made apparent is that Rock hardly ever had to show his vaunted chin or his superhuman stamina. So many early KOs mostly precludes the necessity of showing great chin or great stamina. One tool--punch--usually got the job done and done early. He was actually in only 4 attrition battles with Moore, Walcott, Charles and Charles, the last of which was not a KO, so does not matter to our KO list anyway. I would not personally consider LaStarza or Cockell as attrition fights.

              It makes apparent that whoever he fights--for real or in mythical matchups--he will fight the same way, and the opponent will not only have to look out late--as is commonly acknowledged--but early as well, a dynamic not as often recognized. We already know anyone will have to watch out late, but now they will have to be cautious early too. This goes for anyone from John L. Sullivan to Tyson Fury, I presume.

              The fantasy that Rocky had to wear them down and take them out late is just that, as made clear by the numbers.






              Last edited by Slugfester; 11-22-2023, 08:10 AM.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

                Yes because: Marciano walked around at about 220. He could have come in a lot heavier. In his time the idea was to come in as light as possible. It does not mean that marciano could not weigh in heavier.
                Rocky would lose some of his stamina which he NEEDED if 220 LBS. He'd gas out. You can add all the fat you want to Rocky who fought at the best weight for him, and beat on men under 200 pounds. He would be slower at this weight too. And throw much less punches. Rocky was " fat " in the amateurs and fouled out because he had poor stamina in one fight. He was maybe 10 pounds over his pro weight.

                His frame was small even for his time. About 5' 10 1/2" inches tall with a 67" inch reach. There has not been a man with this dimensions ranked in the top ten at heavyweight for decades. In fact Rocky has the shortest reach of all heavyweight champions.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

                  Rocky would lose some of his stamina which he NEEDED if 220 LBS. He'd gas out. You can add all the fat you want to Rocky who fought at the best weight for him, and beat on men under 200 pounds. He would be slower at this weight too. And throw much less punches. Rocky was " fat " in the amateurs and fouled out because he had poor stamina in one fight. He was maybe 10 pounds over his pro weight.

                  His frame was small even for his time. About 5' 10 1/2" inches tall with a 67" inch reach. There has not been a man with this dimensions ranked in the top ten at heavyweight for decades. In fact Rocky has the shortest reach of all heavyweight champions.
                  In other words... He would be like a modern guy! He fought in a style that compensated for his problems, thats the point. He did not have a small frame... He was smaller but had big bones, which is why he walked around at a higher weight. Your assuming his stamina would be an issue.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Slugfester View Post
                    I remembered an old list I made 4 years ago and decided to do some basic statistical operations with comments. The list is only of Marciano's 43 KOs.

                    The house word processor made it necessary to insert the original list into a table, if I wanted it to look tidy. The processor does not take big gaps without a character in each space, so columns and their headings got compressed to the front of the line. First list is backwards, second list forwards, expressing the same thing in reverse order.


                    KO Rd...X-X0/42 [not 43]...(X-X0)2


                    Moore—9 5 25

                    Cockell—9 5 25

                    Charles—8 4 16

                    LaStarza—11 7 49

                    Walcott—1 3 9

                    Walcott—13 9 81

                    Mathews—2 2 4

                    Reynolds—3 1 1

                    Buonvino—2 2 4

                    Savold—5 1 1

                    Louis—8 4 16

                    Beshore—4 0 0

                    Layne—6 2 4

                    Henri—9 5 25

                    Mitchel—2 2 4

                    Simmons—8 4 16

                    Wilson—1 3 9

                    Shkor—6 2 4

                    Buonvino—10 6 36

                    Eatman—3 1 1

                    Vingo—6 2 4

                    Muscato—5 1 1

                    Richards—2 2 4

                    Dominic—2 2 4

                    DiGiorgio—4 0 0

                    Louthis—3 1 1

                    Haft—3 1 1

                    Evans—3 1 1

                    Walls—3 1 1

                    Donato—1 3 9

                    Pretzie—5 1 1

                    Ferron—2 2 4

                    Connolly—1 3 9

                    Jefferson—2 2 4

                    Cardone—1 3 9

                    Hardeman—1 3 9

                    Jackson—1 3 9

                    Weeks—1 3 9

                    Ross—1 3 9

                    Quinn—3 1 1

                    Edwards—1 3 9

                    Bilazarian—1 3 9
                    ​​
                    Epperson--3 1 1


                    Round KO....................X-X0.................. (X-X0)2
                    3 1 1
                    1 3 9
                    1 3 9
                    1 3 9
                    1 3 9
                    1 3 9
                    2 2 4
                    5 1 1
                    1 3 9
                    3 1 1
                    3 1 1
                    3 1 1
                    3 1 1
                    4 0 0
                    2 2 4
                    2 2 4
                    5 1 1
                    6 2 4
                    10 6 36
                    6 2 4
                    1 3 9
                    8 4 16
                    2 2 4
                    9 5 25
                    6 2 4
                    4 0 0
                    8 4 16
                    5 1 1
                    2 2 4
                    9 5 25
                    6 2 4
                    4 0 0
                    8 4 16
                    5 1 1
                    2 2 4
                    3 1 1
                    2 2 4
                    13 9 81
                    1 3 9
                    11 7 49
                    8 4 16
                    9 5 25
                    9 5 25
                    175 112 402
                    The bottom row of each column is the sum of that column.

                    One more time let's take a look at his KOs, listed horizontally this time from longest to briefest. This is probably the best visual representation that can be seen all at once.

                    13 11 10...9 9 9...8 8 8...6 6 6...5 5 5...4 4...3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3...2 2 2 2 2 2 2...1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

                    Rock had no KOs in rounds 7, 12, 14, 15, because they could not hang with him that far.

                    **********

                    M0=1=mode. Single round Rock KOd the most opponents in.

                    M=4.069= arithmetic mean. Average of how long it took to KO them. Almost exactly 4, which I used instead, with little loss of accuracy.

                    V=9.57=variance.The sum of all the (X-X0)2/42. The square root of this is the standard deviation

                    SD=3.09=standard deviation. A measure of the dispersion of the 43 samples.

                    * * * * * *

                    Rock's standard deviation is small--i.e., a big majority of his KOs are grouped together around early rounds.

                    From the lists and the calculations several things are made clear. He had the most KOs in round 1, 3, 2, in that order. That is, 60% of his KOs occurred in the first three rounds.

                    Another thing made apparent is that Rock hardly ever had to show his vaunted chin or his superhuman stamina. So many early KOs mostly precludes the necessity of showing great chin or great stamina. One tool--punch--usually got the job done and done early. He was actually in only 4 attrition battles with Moore, Walcott, Charles and Charles, the last of which was not a KO, so does not matter to our KO list anyway. I would not personally consider LaStarza or Cockell as attrition fights.

                    It makes apparent that whoever he fights--for real or in mythical matchups--he will fight the same way, and the opponent will not only have to look out late--as is commonly acknowledged--but early as well, a dynamic not as often recognized. We already know anyone will have to watch out late, but now they will have to be cautious early too. This goes for anyone from John L. Sullivan to Tyson Fury, I presume.

                    The fantasy that Rocky had to wear them down and take them out late is just that, as made clear by the numbers.






                    Both the LaStarza and Cockell fights were attrition fights,imo.

                    Lastarza took an early lead,and Rocky changed tactics and began firing more to the body slowing Rollie down.In the last couple of rounds of the fight Marciano had an almost stationary target , and was landing with flush shots.but Lastarza was still on his feet when the fight was stopped.

                    Marciano fought a particularly dirty fight against Cockell and said his best punches did not seem to affect Cockell until late on.

                    Bottom line, Marciano wore them both down,that is the definition of attrition imo.

                    Because Marciano had some early kos over bozos doesn't mean he didn't require rounds of applying punishment to get the stoppage against better men.

                    He wore Moore down, he set a pace Louis could not keep up with after a promising start and ,once Louis' legs went he was toast.
                    Layne was belaboured around his soft body until his hands began to drop and Marciano ,who was basically a superior version of Layne in every department then switched his attacks to the head.

                    Walcott was systematically pressured under a non stop attack until he began retreating to the ropes to save his old legs and resorting to an old ploy of his, using the ropes as leverage to come off them with a shot.
                    Charles was worn to a frazzle.
                    These were all attrition fights.



                    Stats that do not take into account the quality of the opposition are imo, not just misleading ,but utterly meaningless

                    Marciano had a good chin,"vaunted?",the two best punchers he fought dropped him.
                    What he had was remarkable powers of recovery,and that imo, is mainly down to his superb conditioning.

                    How many massive punchers did Rocky face to show this vaunted chin against?

                    What nobody has seen fit to mention as really relevant is not size but AGE.

                    Louis was 37.Walcott was 38.Moore according to his Mother was 41,Charles was younger at 33 but past prime with nearly a 100 fights on his clock, fighting in a weight class that was not his ideal one.
                    All these men's best days were behind them.
                    Rocky wasn't generally a one punch ko artist because his delivery technique was just so,so and his accuracy was poor, ko's over class men did not usually come until he had reduced his opponent almost to a walk.
                    Stamina ? Yes excellent stamina,but wouldn't you expect him to outlast men so much older?

                    Marciano's conditioning was his essence,it meant that he could throw ceaseless punches with the same velocity all the way through a fight.
                    Many opponents stated they were hit harder by other fighters.Moore,Charles,Louis,Layne,[ this one surprises me,]Lastarza,Cockell,
                    But several of them also said, but not so often ,or with so many punches.

                    NB Marciano did not ko Wilson.Wilson was forced to retire with a badly gashed eye.
                    .
                    Last edited by Ivich; 11-23-2023, 04:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Ivich View Post
                      Both the LaStarza and Cockell fights were attrition fights,imo.

                      Lastarza took an early lead,and Rocky changed tactics and began firing more to the body slowing Rollie down.In the last couple of rounds of the fight Marciano had an almost stationary target , and was landing with flush shots.but Lastarza was still on his feet when the fight was stopped.

                      Marciano fought a particularly dirty fight against Cockell and said his best punches did not seem to affect Cockell until late on.

                      Bottom line, Marciano wore them both down,that is the definition of attrition imo.

                      Because Marciano had some early kos over bozos doesn't mean he didn't require rounds of applying punishment to get the stoppage against better men.

                      He wore Moore down, he set a pace Louis could not keep up with after a promising start and ,once Louis' legs went he was toast.
                      Layne was belaboured around his soft body until his hands began to drop and Marciano ,who was basically a superior version of Layne in every department then switched his attacks to the head.

                      Walcott was systematically pressured under a non stop attack until he began retreating to the ropes to save his old legs and resorting to an old ploy of his, using the ropes as leverage to come off them with a shot.
                      Charles was worn to a frazzle.
                      These were all attrition fights.



                      Stats that do not take into account the quality of the opposition are imo, not just misleading ,but utterly meaningless

                      Marciano had a good chin,"vaunted?",the two best punchers he fought dropped him.
                      What he had was remarkable powers of recovery,and that imo, is mainly down to his superb conditioning.

                      How many massive punchers did Rocky face to show this vaunted chin against?

                      What nobody has seen fit to mention as really relevant is not size but AGE.

                      Louis was 37.Walcott was 38.Moore according to his Mother was 41,Charles was younger at 33 but past prime with nearly a 100 fights on his clock, fighting in a weight class that was not his ideal one.
                      All these men's best days were behind them.
                      Rocky wasn't generally a one punch ko artist because his delivery technique was just so,so and his accuracy was poor, ko's over class men did not usually come until he had reduced his opponent almost to a walk.
                      Stamina ? Yes excellent stamina,but wouldn't you expect him to outlast men so much older?

                      Marciano's conditioning was his essence,it meant that he could throw ceaseless punches with the same velocity all the way through a fight.
                      Many opponents stated they were hit harder by other fighters.Moore,Charles,Louis,Layne,[ this one surprises me,]Lastarza,Cockell,
                      But several of them also said, but not so often ,or with so many punches.

                      NB Marciano did not ko Wilson.Wilson was forced to retire with a badly gashed eye.
                      .
                      I think you make some great points. Marciano, if you watch tape of him was crude but he did certain things. He often worked laterally. He did so with relatively big movements, as opposed to subtle angles, but he managed not to get tagged flush often enough. The biggest thing, and by Marciano's own admission: He fought in a perpetual crouch. This crouch was strengthened by his previous ability as a catcher (you stay in a crouch, caught a few years myself lol), and his relative height. It would be difficult for a big heavyweight to catch Rocky to the body.

                      As far as his chin I believe it is a fair question. He truly did not face any punchers at prime career level.
                      Ivich Ivich likes this.

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