Savvy, Skill and Style

[them_apples]

Just writing this to differentiate between the 3 in regards to boxing.

Savvy would refer to experience and putting things together. Timing, tricks and judgement. Many Savvy attributes are intangible. An example would be Archie Moore deliberately moseying in to get his opponent to hit him, only to find out it’s a ploy, opening them up to get countered. A non savvy fighter with less experience couldn’t pull this off.

Skill would refer to technical things, like balance and leverage, relaxation and knowing the exact muscles to use and which not to. Joe Louis throws a perfect left hook, Sonny Liston throws a perfect left jab. These punches are worked upon to be efficient, explosive but also subtle and untelegraphed.

Style refers to mostly a visual thing, but it also includes a fighters rhythm and timing. Some styles are harder to time. Style isn’t really anything skillful but it can add to a fighters arsenal.
Joe Louis and Ray Robinson both use very similar skills and Savvy, but have very different styles. One is fleet footed and fluid with a dancing Rythm, the other is extremely subtle and muted (poker body) but explosive. However they both use the same technique and leverage in regards to punching, both carry a near identical stance. The Savvy abilities differ, Robinson seemingly sets up his opponent’s for his left, Louis tends to lead them into his right.

Let me know what you all think. I describe them this way because certain people tend to get them confused. Mainly they associate style with skill. Marciano has a lot of Savvy AND SKILL, but a rough hewn Style. His leverage and punching technique are top tier (skill) his Savvy is top tier in the sense that he tricks opponents and baits them by appearing hittable. His style however displays himself as off balance and rather clumsy. His knockout of Walcott is a perfectly timed, perfect leveraged punching display.

In the reverse: Leonard and Robinson have a similar style, being slick and fluid - fast fighters darting in an out. Their skill and Savvy attributes are completely different. They throw jabs and hooks with different technique and they tend to use entirely different set ups and combinations in regards to their savvier ways.

[Slugfester]

<Skill would refer to technical things, like balance and leverage, relaxation and knowing the exact muscles to use and which not to. Joe Louis throws a perfect left hook, Sonny Liston throws a perfect left jab. These punches are worked upon to be efficient, explosive but also subtle and untelegraphed.>

Oh sure. We have all seen guys get knocked out standing in the middle of the ring trying to decide which muscles to use for their next punch. Are you a little crazy, are ye?

[them_apples]

<Skill would refer to technical things, like balance and leverage, relaxation and knowing the exact muscles to use and which not to. Joe Louis throws a perfect left hook, Sonny Liston throws a perfect left jab. These punches are worked upon to be efficient, explosive but also subtle and untelegraphed.>

Oh sure. We have all seen guys get knocked out standing in the middle of the ring trying to decide which muscles to use for their next punch. Are you a little crazy, are ye?

How did you interpret it that way? Lol clearly not what was meant

when you perfect your punch technique it becomes muscle memory. Knowing which muscles to use and which not is one aspect that defines proper technique

one thing noobs to is engage too many muscles. Some work against you.

[kara]

Just writing this to differentiate between the 3 in regards to boxing.

Savvy would refer to experience and putting things together. Timing, tricks and judgement. Many Savvy attributes are intangible. An example would be Archie Moore deliberately moseying in to get his opponent to hit him, only to find out it���¢��������s a ploy, opening them up to get countered. A non savvy fighter with less experience couldnâ��t pull this off.

Skill would refer to technical things, like balance and leverage, relaxation and knowing the exact muscles to use and which not to. Joe Louis throws a perfect left hook, Sonny Liston throws a perfect left jab. These punches are worked upon to be efficient, explosive but also subtle and untelegraphed.

Style refers to mostly a visual thing, but it also includes a fighters rhythm and timing. Some styles are harder to time. Style isn���¢��������t really anything skillful but it can add to a fighters arsenal.
Joe Louis and Ray Robinson both use very similar skills and Savvy, but have very different styles. One is fleet footed and fluid with a dancing Rythm, the other is extremely subtle and muted (poker body) but explosive. However they both use the same technique and leverage in regards to punching, both carry a near identical stance. The Savvy abilities differ, Robinson seemingly sets up his opponent���¢��������s for his left, Louis tends to lead them into his right.

Let me know what you all think. I describe them this way because certain people tend to get them confused. Mainly they associate style with skill. Marciano has a lot of Savvy AND SKILL, but a rough hewn Style. His leverage and punching technique are top tier (skill) his Savvy is top tier in the sense that he tricks opponents and baits them by appearing hittable. His style however displays himself as off balance and rather clumsy. His knockout of Walcott is a perfectly timed, perfect leveraged punching display.

In the reverse: Leonard and Robinson have a similar style, being slick and fluid - fast fighters darting in an out. Their skill and Savvy attributes are completely different. They throw jabs and hooks with different technique and they tend to use entirely different set ups and combinations in regards to their savvier ways.

Good stuff Apple

[max baer]

How did you interpret it that way? Lol clearly not what was meant

when you perfect your punch technique it becomes muscle memory. Knowing which muscles to use and which not is one aspect that defines proper technique

one thing noobs to is engage too many muscles. Some work against you.

no i get what you are saying apples. What I would like to learn from you is, when a boy attends the gym and the guys that run the gym notice this kid is determined and keeps showing up. Is it early on when the trainer decides what style is most natural for the kid and what style he is simply no good at?
I think of my hero frank bruno he was very rigid to me and joshua is also very rigid. It is like their movements are meticulously practised and practised over and over. then there is fury with his feints and his style is more natural looking, then there is prince nazeem who is all over the ring.
What I am asking is whether when starting out do young kids try all different ways and find this style lands them on their bum but they are quite good at this other bob and weave style?
I ask you this because i always wonder when watching a boxer like bruno "why don't you move more laterally or I watch joshua and it seems his moves are the same robotic moves that he has practised to death. I see usyk moves his head all the time and joshua's pre planned moves wouldn't catch him making joshua mad at himself as we saw at the end of their rematch.
Am I right in thinking that as aj was 18 when he started boxing he was too late to develop natural style but has great athleticism that he kept practising set moves.
I wonder why some guys simply only have one way of boxing and i think "why don't they try other styles?
I think if fury fights usyk he needs to spar with very slippery guys because joshua desperately wanted to catch him all 12 rounds and at the end he was so utterly frustrated that he just couldn't nail him with a punch and could have gone on if he was allowed. His style just couldn't hit him and it drove him mad.
I just wondered why boxers always have the same style in their whole career and very few can change things halfway through. Like ali never ever threw bodyshots. i never saw a body shot it was always head shots. is it maybe impossible for a man, at 22 say to change his boxing style?
Just me wondering apples great thread you made here.

[Slugfester]

But muscle memory is not knowing which muscles to use anyway. It is doing the movements automatically without thought of muscles. Boxers do not consult a memorized anatomy chart before a punch. They learn to punch the right way and that uses the right muscles. The movements involved is their concern. Do those correctly and you have worked the right muscles.

Savvy is highly abstract and consists of instincts and other nebulous concepts. We all know what it sort of means. But is Joey Maxim really less savvy than Robinson, whom he beat by savvy? A boxer who takes beatings to win can be quite savvy. Savvy is hard to calculate in.

Skill is definable and observable, if we let it mean what the word means instead of stretching it.

[them_apples]

But muscle memory is not knowing which muscles to use anyway. It is doing the movements automatically without thought of muscles. Boxers do not consult a memorized anatomy chart before a punch. They learn to punch the right way and that uses the right muscles. The movements involved is their concern. Do those correctly and you have worked the right muscles.

Savvy is highly abstract and consists of instincts and other nebulous concepts. We all know what it sort of means. But is Joey Maxim really less savvy than Robinson, whom he beat by savvy? A boxer who takes beatings to win can be quite savvy. Savvy is hard to calculate in.

Skill is definable and observable, if we let it mean what the word means instead of stretching it.

Which is exactly what I am saying. YOU said they consulted a chart and thought about it in the moment of a fight. I never said that. I don’t want this to be another Bundana situation where he is quoting me on something I never claimed for 2 years lol

this is the 3rd time you have done this. You interpret things is very strange ways and jump on them

[them_apples]

no i get what you are saying apples. What I would like to learn from you is, when a boy attends the gym and the guys that run the gym notice this kid is determined and keeps showing up. Is it early on when the trainer decides what style is most natural for the kid and what style he is simply no good at?
I think of my hero frank bruno he was very rigid to me and joshua is also very rigid. It is like their movements are meticulously practised and practised over and over. then there is fury with his feints and his style is more natural looking, then there is prince nazeem who is all over the ring.
What I am asking is whether when starting out do young kids try all different ways and find this style lands them on their bum but they are quite good at this other bob and weave style?
I ask you this because i always wonder when watching a boxer like bruno "why don't you move more laterally or I watch joshua and it seems his moves are the same robotic moves that he has practised to death. I see usyk moves his head all the time and joshua's pre planned moves wouldn't catch him making joshua mad at himself as we saw at the end of their rematch.
Am I right in thinking that as aj was 18 when he started boxing he was too late to develop natural style but has great athleticism that he kept practising set moves.
I wonder why some guys simply only have one way of boxing and i think "why don't they try other styles?
I think if fury fights usyk he needs to spar with very slippery guys because joshua desperately wanted to catch him all 12 rounds and at the end he was so utterly frustrated that he just couldn't nail him with a punch and could have gone on if he was allowed. His style just couldn't hit him and it drove him mad.
I just wondered why boxers always have the same style in their whole career and very few can change things halfway through. Like ali never ever threw bodyshots. i never saw a body shot it was always head shots. is it maybe impossible for a man, at 22 say to change his boxing style?
Just me wondering apples great thread you made here.

Bruno and Joshua almost don’t have a style, they spent too much time pumping iron. Their “style” is textbook stand up boxing, but very limited fundamentally since fundamentals are a combination of skill and a bit of Savvy.

Ali had a style, his movements were smooth and non jerky, his punches came off fast. Duran had a brawling versions of this. An easy coasting rythm but fast explosive punches mixed in with deliberately slower set up punches.

Pacquiao and Mayweather were some of the few that actually had styles today. Maidana had a style.

garcia, Berto, Broner, Spence etc all have no style. Or if you call it a style, an amateur style.

[Slugfester]

Which is exactly what I am saying. YOU said they consulted a chart and thought about it in the moment of a fight. I never said that. I don�t want this to be another Bundana situation where he is quoting me on something I never claimed for 2 years lol

this is the 3rd time you have done this. You interpret things is very strange ways and jump on them

The forum thrives on disagreement, not agreement. When we do not agree we are supposed to disagree or fail our duty. Agreements are for the like button. Any real action takes place in disagreements.

[max baer]

The forum thrives on disagreement, not agreement. When we do not agree we are supposed to disagree or fail our duty. Agreements are for the like button. Any real action takes place in disagreements.

no it f***ing doesn't!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok